Comprehensive and Grammar schools

[LesleyA]

Hi, im not familiar with the UK schooling system and heard that if your child goes to a Grammar school the intention would be that they can study at university after school. What does that mean for children who go to a comprehensive secondary school? Can they still go on to university? We are coming to live in the UK and most likely will put our daughter in a comprehensive secondary school however I'm concerned that this limits her/boxes her as not being able to go on to get a degree (if she so chooses). Would love to hear how it works. Also for state schools are they generally approximately 30 kids in a class? My youngest who is 9 turning 10 has dyslexia and struggles academically and would drown in a class of 30. Also is it correct that the further out of London (in the villages) one moves the better the chances of being in a school with smaller class and lastly I'm not sure of the point of checking out schools as dont the LA place your children where there are spaces? Lots of questions! Would love to hear.

The LA will offer a space in the closest school that has them available.

The UK isn't like e.g. the Netherlands or Switzerland, we don't have a university track at school - any child with good enough gcse results at 16 can go on to study a levels, and any child with good enough a level results at 18 can go to university. Most secondary schools are comprehensive, there are relatively few grammar schools around now, although a fair number still retain it as part of their name.

And yes, most classes at both primary and secondary state schools will have around 30 students in. There is usually extra support for those who need it though, in small groups with a teacher, teaching assistant, or parent volunteer.

Any one achieving a level 3 (A levels, IB diploma, Btec etc) can apply to uni, from whatever type of school. Even if you don't get level 3 at 18/19 there are alternative routes. Most state primary schools have classes around 30 ( limited to 30 until aged 7). Schools vary throughout the country, London or beyond.

Many areas do not have a grammar system at all, while in some areas

LesleyA,

Probably the best way to think about it is by first imagining the full range of children's abilities.

There will be a small percentage of children whose disabilities are so great that they will attend specific 'Special schools' that usually specialise in certain disabilities.

A comprehensive secondary school will then take all other children who live within their local area. They will therefore cater for children of every ability - the range will depend somewhat on the school's popularity and the demographics of the local area, but in principle they will contain children of all abilities from the very highest to nearly the lowest. They therefore offer a range of subjects and qualifications that are suitable for all of these children. A proportion of these students will go on to university, because they will get the grades in academic exams at 18 that give them the 'entry ticket' for these.

In a grammar school area, the grammar schools will select children towards the higher end of the ability spectrum. A higher proportion will therefore go on to university, but that will be a very similar proportion of children of like ability at comprehensives. (So for example, if 50 higher ability children at comprehensives and grammar schools are compared, a very similar proportion of these children of matched ability from each school will go on to university).

The other schools in grammar areas are technically secondary modern schools, though some are misleadingly called 'comprehensives', or 'high schools' or just 'schools'. They will contain fewer high ability children, but if they get the required grades at 18, there is nothing at all to stop the children from these schools from going to university as well.

In England, entry to university is only on the basis of exams taken at 18, and these exams are fairly universal across all schools (most are A-levels, though there are others). Entrance to university is on the basis of A-level results, so any pupil from any school (or e.g. home educated) can go to university if they get the required grades.

Oxford and Cambridge, and applications for medicine-type courses, are the only exceptions, as they have specific additional entry exams in general, though again attendance at particular school types does not prevent any child from applying to these universities and taking these exams.

Thanks so much for the quick replies. A lot of information to think about so appreciate the feedback!

On the classes of 30: school funding is based on a class of 30 children covering the funding necessary to pay for 1 teacher. Thus schools will tend to run with classes of as close to 30 as they can manage - in small village schools, 2, 3 or even 4 year groups may share a classroom and a teacher in order to make the school funding viable.

LadyLance. I really must correct you! In Bucks we have variations in the percentages who get to Grammars. Much higher in the South of the County than the North, parts of High Wycombe or Aylesbury. 25% is an average for the whole county.

The worst thing you have said is that the secondary moderns have no high achievers. This is completely wrong. Many of the secondary moderns have 25% plus high achievers and quite a few have nearer 35%. Higher than very many comprehensives in fact! Just check your facts before posting please. Many children from the secondary moderns do go to university! So Bucks for many people is a great place to live. It has many very good primary schools.

Adding to LadyLance - the 11+ is notoriously unreliable as an indicator of 'high ability', so grammars will contain some low ability children, and secondary moderns some high ability children.

It's probably truest to say that grammars have a higher proportion of high ability pupils than the area they serve as a whole, and secondary moderns a lower.

However, the 'absolute' range of ability in any school is probably most strongly linked to the demographics of the area it serves. A grammar school in a remote coastal town, for example, might have a lower ability profile than a comprehensive, or even a secondary modern, in an affluent,area with many professional families.

Thank you to the last 2 posters. I also live in Bucks and there are a good proportion of high acievers in the secondary modern ‘upper schools’ as they’re known around here

No low attainers whatsoever in any grammar schools here in Bucks and middle attainers are pretty rare too! These are terms used by the DfE to describe categories of children based on prior attainment. It would be virtually impossible for a low attainer to get to a grammar school! I assume you know how children are categorised cantkeepawayforever?

I would doubt any coastal grammar has fewer higher attainers than leafy lane comprehensives. If you think this, a few stats would be useful! This would indicate a very iffy 11 plus!

Yes.

Figures for local superselective grammar schools, for the cohort who left last summer and so are included in the most recent figures:

School A: about 90% high attainers at end KS2; about 9% middle attainers, about 1% low attainers

School B: About 85% high attainers; about 13% middle attainers; about 1% low attainers

School C: About 99% high attainers; 1% middle attainers

School D: About 92% High attainers; 8% middle attainers

If I look at Grammar schools in further-flung areas, ratios I have found include
75% High Attainers; 25% Middle
65% High; 30% Middle; 5% Low

The latter compares quite closely to very leafy comp.

(I haven't been desperately systematic, I'm afraid - just made some guesses about leafy comps mentioned on here in the past, looked them up on the DfE tables and compared with vaguely coastal-sounding grammar schools. The analysis is compromised by the fact that grammar schools have higher proportions of children 'missing' from the previous attainment stats because they were at private primaries.

I have - possibly wrongly - assumed the same ratios of different abilities for those children as for those who entered the school with KS2 results from state schools.)

It is probably worth saying that locally, at the point when this cohort was taking the 11+, it was based only on VR, for which it was possible to be very, very highly tutored with a significant degree of success (noting that the figures i have given will not include those 'managed out' on the way through the school, of whom locally there are a non-zero number).

It may be that a more comprehensive, wider-ranging 11+ process would have been more robust / reproducible / accurate in identifying "high ability" children.

The fact that a percentage of low prior attainers attend some coastal grammar schools may not indicate an 11+ any 'iffier' than anywhere else.

The 11+ is somewhat iffy everywhere, especially along the borderline of pass / fail (it's not very reproducible - if the same children sat the test on a different day, or a different paper, different children would pass). However, in an area where the majority of children are high or middle ability - such as the catchment of leafy comps - 11+ errors only result in trading 1 high ability child for another, or at 'worst', a middle ability child for a high ability child.

However, in areas where there are relatively few high / medium ability children in the cohort as a whole, due to its demographics, a similar level of error in the 11+ exam would result in a low ability child getting the place a middle ability child 'should' have had, just because the 11+ borderline is lower down the 'absolute' ability scale.

bubblesbuddy clearly, I was simplifying to try and explain the system to someone unfamiliar with it. Bucks is one county in the UK and it's probably not worth going into detail about the system there unless OP decides to live there. I was trying to highlight the difference between super-selectives and other grammars.

But obviously it's better to attack someone who's trying to help over a perceived criticism