I don't understand the Scottish primary system can someone please help

[heather1001]

Hi, I have just moved back to Scotland from the middle east where we had my son in a British school. My son started primary school in Scotland, he has gone into a P5/P6 class. The school has said he will be getting the same education as the P6/P7, I don't understand how this can work.

My concern is in the English system he was finishing his final year at primary school and doing well, but his age meant he had to go back to P6. He was doing very well at school before. And now it seems like he has gone back 2 years. He told me this morning he hasn't learnt anything yet. I know it is early days but I am so worried.

I've heard from a number of sources that Scottish universities are struggling with the low level of their Scottish students.
As you will know,the performance of Scottish students in the international league table has dropped.

I also disagree about depth. At 16 an English child can take 10 GCSEs. A Scottish child takes a maximum of 5 highers.

Ds has a friend at Glasgow Academy: he did indeed do one GCSE - alongside his Nat 5s - but only because it was a particularly specialised one that was of interest to the career he wants to follow and there wasn't an equivalent one done by the SQA at Nat 5.

As far as I am aware, most of the private schools in Glasgow mostly do Nat 5s and Highers/AHs. But like the state schools, they will sometimes do A Levels (or even the odd GCSE) if the subject matter is more appropriate for their pupil(s). Particularly with AHs, they will sometimes combine with other schools (including dastardly state schools) in order to reach the critical mass.

I did 6 Highers in S5 - along with most of the rest of my class.

The norm nowadays is indeed just 5 Highers in a single sitting (in comparison to the English 3 A Levels). However, it is still possible to sit more - especially if you do more in S6. Ds will leave school with 6 (good) Highers and 2 AHs. He chose "only" to do 2 AHs and a crash Higher in S6 because he is also coaching - both at school and outside (as well as being academic, he is also sporty). One of his fellow pupils in S6 will be leaving with 6 Highers and 4 AHs (having sat one of the AHs last year, getting an A).

Ds' school allows pupils to sit 8 x Nat 5s if they are capable (plus in ds' case - and presumably most of his cohort - he also ended up getting a Nat 4 in RME, just from what he did in the core hours - and if he hadn't been doing a Nat 5 in PE, would've got a Nat 4 in that too from the core hours).

Those schools that only "allow" fewer Nat 5s will have studied a broader range to a greater depth for an extra year, so that it is easier either to crash a Higher (in S5 or S6) or to supplement more Nat 5s (although I prefer the way ds' school does it).

In England, English is split into English Language and English Literature, which accounts for one of the "extra" exams (in Scotland, language and literature are combined in the single exam).

I've been very pleased with the quality of ds' education - and I know he has an excellent foundation for Uni, wherever he ends up (His preferred choice is notoriously late in sending out offers - but he already has an Unconditional from a highly respected Uni).

Scotland must be doing something right with the quality of its exams because, as I repeat, UCAS, even though it recently re-calibrated its points system, values the Scottish exams more highly than the equivalent English ones.

Why do people compare GCSEs taken with highers taken. They are different exams, a higher is not an equivalent exam. Scottish students in their 5/6 years do study a broader range than their English counterparts.

If in England, DC would study 10 GCSEs. As is in Scotland, at exactly the same age she will study only 5 highers. They will all be subjects already studied at N5 level.. So less breadth.

The qualifications are different in Scotland and England. None are better, they are different.

My DS will sit the following exams:

x8 Nat 5's (below the level of GCSE)
x6 Highers (between GCSE & A Level)
x4 Advanced Highers (above the level of A Level)

Assuming he got A's in all of his Highers, they would be worth 33 UCAS points, Advanced Highers would be worth 56 points. A Levels at A are worth 48 points.

DS will leave school at the end of Scottish 6th year, when he will be, just turned 18.

If he wanted to go to University to study Accountancy, he would need the following (as an example)

SQA Highers - AABB
A Levels - BBB

Why do people compare GCSEs taken with highers taken

Because they don't understand the system, are confused about differences in intakes or because they are wilfully pursuing a "Scottish system is crap" agenda.

Let me tell you a story. In the olden days, children in Scotland could leave school at 16, once they had either sat O Grades or were almost 16. Childen in England sat O Levels at the same stage. They could then either leave school or proceed. In Scotland, children at that stage - embarked on a one year Higher course. Children in England choose subjects they would study for two years, culminating in A levels.

This has not changed. Exams might have changed names but the ethos is still the same. UCAS do not equate GCSEs with Highers. When looking at Universities, it's the Highers and A-levels that UCAS want to know about. Someone who switches between the two systems finds themselves slightly out of sync because of when their birthday falls proves nothing. You cannot pitch up at Glasgow uni or anywhere else and get in on the strength of your GCSEs.

The fact is that most children in Scotland who are preparing for their University entrance qualifications take 5 subjects. Traditonally all do English and Maths, and three of their choice. Then you sit your Highers in the May of your 5th year at secondary, when you're either 17 already, or coming up for 17. If you're like me and do well in your 5th year Highers, you apply for Uni in the autumn of your 6th year at school with the passes already in the bag and get an unconditional place. Some Unis and courses (medicine, Oxbridge) ask for Advanced Highers on top. Or if you're like my DS who is rapidly approaching that stage, you're considering doing extra Highers in your 6th year to broaden your education - he's wanting to do RE Higher as he's been told it will develop critical thinking. This is a huge advantage over the English system as young people already have their exam passes before applying, they don't waste time applying for courses they won't get into and there's not the manic clearing rush when people do better or worse than they've hoped.

But anyway. As has been said lots of times, apples and oranges.

Completely agree with you K2P2 my comment was aimed at those who keep wilfully ignoring the fact that GCSEs and highers are different exams. Keep going on about 10 gcse when the curriculum and progression is completely different. I have DC currently sitting nat 5s, highers and advanced highers. I sat a combination of o levels (England) and o grades (Scotland) as I actually moved from one system to the other at they critical point. The Scottish system has problems but also many good points but it’s the complete disregard of facts by posters who have dc in the English system that is really annoying.

As, I said, DC is in one of the highest performing Scottish state schools. She finds it very relaxed, and that the children are a long way behind those at her run of the mill English school. She reckoned that in S1 they were about 2 years behind in maths. They have very little homework. There is absolutely no way that when she leaves school, a year earlier than she would have in England, she will be ahead of English students.
This is why unis are struggling with Scottish students.

Education levels in Scotland are lower than in England anyway

Thanks for that little gem. Luckily enough with my Scottish state education I managed to read it eh?

For all the English posters being negative about the Scottish education system, do me a favour and wind your necks in. I know fuck all about the English education system, therefore don’t comment on it. You know fuck all about the Scottish education system and are posting a load of absolute shite as if it’s fact.

I don't think Candog grasps it, Celtie. Maybe she needs more education . It's been explained clearly on here but she's either not RTFT, or is failing to understand - or is being deliberately obtuse.

The Scottish school cut-off dates are c6 months different. Is that so difficult to understand? So it can't be said that because her child would've sat Highers at the same time as kids her age were sitting GCSEs that they are the "equivalent". She would already have studied 10+ subjects up to S2/S3, then chosen** to continue 6-8 Nat 5s (dependent on the school).

Ds is in S6. If he were in England, he would only be in Y12. In no way are the exams he is doing this year the same exams as someone in Lower Sixth. He is doing 2 Advanced Highers (as well as the crash Higher) which, if he gets an A, would have the same points as an A* for an A Level. If he slacks off (because of his Unconditional ) and only gets a B, that would give him the same points as an A for A Level.

He already has university entrance exam passes - which is what Highers unlike GCSEs are - in Maths, English, Physics, Geography and Chemistry (and will add Modern Studies this year) - which gives him a broad gamut of courses to choose from (just as well, as he radically changed his mind about what he wanted to do over the summer ) Try applying to Uni to do any of those with just GCSEs

If you're not doing Advanced Highers, the most an English Uni might do is propose a foundation year, which is what Leeds suggested to me when I was applying from S5. In the event, I chose St Andrews - where I studied - and coped - alongside the many English students who had done A Levels (as is one of ds' friends, who chose to go to Edinburgh Uni from S5 and regaling his friends still at school with his exploits )

Bolding fail because of the A

"...which, if he gets an A, would have the same points as an A* for an A Level. If he slacks off (because of his Unconditional ) and only gets a B, that would give him the same points as a (plain) A for A Level."

Celtie - got distracted doing other things before I posted and hadn't seen your post, but I see you and I took a very similar angle

The crux of the matter is that whenever you switch from one system to another, which has different cut off dates for entry, you are going to have some parents who think their children are repeating a year, other parents who feel their children are too far advanced, depending on when their birthdays fall and when the cut offs are. It doesn't mean one system is better, or worse, or harder, or softer. It's just different.

I have a 9 year old born in July 2008. I bet if I conducted a straw poll of every other parent on MN with a child born in the same month, they'll all have been doing different things at school this week, whether they're in Glasgow, Scotland, England, Canada or Outer fucking Mongolia. My 9 year old will have covered topics that the Northern Irish child hasn't and vice versa.

@k2p2k2tog has it nailed.

1. My child is in the Scottish system. Having previously been in the English system. I also have a child going through the English system. OP is comparing her child's international British school (assume English system) with a Scottish school. I am probably in a better position to comment than most posters on here.
2. You are conveniently ignoring what I have said about my child's experience of one of the top ranking Scottish schools. She will have 1 year less of education than if she had remained in the English system. That aside, it is inconceivable to me that, bearing in mind that the children in her year have from S1 entry been working at a lower level than pupils in the English system, that they are required to work less hard, are given little homework, take time off school far more easily, etc, that they will miraculously perform better than English students at the stage of leaving school.
3. Public exams in England are getting a LOT tougher. I gather that public exams in Scotland are getting easier.
4. I'm not talking about UCAS points, I'm talking about what the children know and can do at the end of their time at school. 5)Those of you who talk about your own Scottish education. That is irrelevant. Scotland used to be famous for its high quality education. That is no longer the case. The system has changed completely. I have read plenty of stuff about the disaster that is the Curriculum for Excellence. Including in the Scottish TES. I quote from that publication, from 2016:

"There are “only five years left” to salvage Curriculum for Excellence, experts have warned, after Scotland slumped in Pisa, one of the world’s leading education rankings.
The new Pisa (Programme for International Student Assessment) results prompted education secretary John Swinney (pictured, above) to say he would push ahead with “radical” and “controversial” reforms in an attempt to make CfE work.
One academic described the results as the “worst news for Scottish education in 30 years”."

I have heard a lot of horror stories about Scottish schools. Actually I think that DD is well off. Her school is ok. But it's a long way behind the schools her friends in England are going to.

You also haven't explained to me why, if Scottish exams are tougher than English ones, the top private schools in Scotland put their academically strong pupils in for GCSEs and A'levels, but make the less academic children take the Scottish exams. I know that some of less well known private schools do Scottish exams only. I imagine that that is because it is easier to get children through them.

@Candog we get it, Scotland is shit and you can’t wait to bang on and on about how shit the education system is. Give it a rest will you?

I really hope your child isn't going into their school and being as obnoxious as their parent and telling their classmates how behind they are and what a bunch of thickies they are compared with the superior English students.

Seriously.

I really couldn't give two hoots whether the kids at Fettes or Loretto are doing A-levels or not. Because there are probably about 100 of them, most of them will be from the Far East or Middle East, the rest from Europe. You keep harping on about Highers / Advanced Highers being a piece of piss and how behind the civilised world your darling child is, and ignoring what Prettybird and others have posted about what people like UCAS say regarding the relative difficulty of exams.

CfE is not perfect. But I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect curriculum. I do wish that the government wouldn't keep changing it, but I see the same complaints from parents south of the border. What I have seen from CfE is that it allows mroe flexibility at the primary stage, none of this teaching to SATS with the rest of the curriculum going out of the window.

May i suggest very kindly that you hoik your child out of her "top performing state school" and send her back south of the border quick smart as you are obviously doing her a terrible disservice by subjecting her to the horrors of a Scottish education. Poor wee lamb.

Stay in your bubble and ignore all evidence, why don't you. And where exactly did I criticise any part of Scotland other than its education system?

My tuppence worth while we’re obviously comparing England and Scotland is that when it comes to SEN/ASN the English system is an abomination. The amount of parents on here who have had little or no support whatsoever for their children in the English system is actually really concerning.

Having 3 bairns with SN I’m bloody glad we’re where we are, where they’ll be given the additional support they need to thrive.

most of the private schools in Glasgow mostly do Nat 5s and Highers/AHs

But Prettybird, those aren't the TOP scottish private schools. Private schools aren't even worth discussing unless you're going to Glenalmond or Fettes, darling. (Starting to think that Candog is actually a SNP shill account designed to rile up moderate Unionists by demonstrating that in fact it's true, English people hate the Scots. Because nobody can be that dense, can they?)

@Candog you implied that Scottish pupils are thick ffs. Not exactly a sparkling reference for Scotland is it? Anyway, I couldn’t really care less what you think. You jumped on to a thread about Scottish education to rip it to shreds and make sure everything about it was demeaned in comparison to wonderful England and their problem free perfect system

The education system has been fantastic for my children, albeit not mainstream, but I wouldn’t have got that elsewhere judging by a huge proportion of posters on here, and in RL. So I, for one, am extremely grateful for a system that looks at more than just results and holistically approaches education.

Quite, Notreally. My S1 daughter's best friend has ASD. The way school managed her transition from a small Primary to a very large secondary has been outstanding. My S3 child is about to pick options for Nat 5s, best tell him not to bother and start applying for jobs down McDs as he's no hope in hell making anything of his desire for a career as a scientist with his shoddy, second rate education.

Best start saving for Fettes...