Please reassure me that setting at 5 does not mean that much for the future

[Wornout8]

I'll keep it brief. I'm not on the same page as the teacher with regards to dd's ability, she's been seen as high ability previously and has been in top groups, however is now in middle ability and now lacking in confidence. It seems we won't be able agree so I'm resigned to doing extra at home. Is this bad year likely to have much of an effect on her future achievement in the grand scheme of things?

DS1 was part of a group of 7 out of 37 DC in reception aged 4, who were moved up to a year 1 class as they were deemed to be the brightest/most confident etc. Children do learn at different rates, but interestingly now aged 12/13, the same seven are all top set at secondary school alongside only a handful of the others.

At our school they are set from Reception but it’s to do with pace of learning as opposed to ability. You may have a very intelligent child who just takes a little longer to pick things up than others. There’s also the issue where they are being taught in a very specific way. They may well be able to do it, but not the way the school wants.

We have children swapping sets all the time as something “clicks”. At this stage I really wouldn’t worry about it.

I do think expectations matter. If a teacher expects more of a child/a group of children, that child/that group of children will (generally) do more. I believe there have been 'experiments' where they grouped children randomly, but told the teachers 'group A are the clever ones' 'group B will need to take it more slowly' etc and after a few weeks already, group A were indeed achieving more on all sorts of measures.

I also think this is part of why summer-borns (on average) achieve less well all through school. Self-fulfilling prophecy. (Not the only reason though).

So from that perspective it does matter.

But the question is, does it matter in the grand scheme? As you say OP this is a 'bad year' so chances are that next year with a new teacher, she'll be moved back to appropriate groups, so in the long term, no harm done.
Personally I do not think you need to teach her extra at home in order to keep up with the top group, to have a chance of moving back to the top group once she's with a different teacher. The top group will not be moving further ahead in the curriculum. What they may be doing is having more 'thinking' questions, problem solving rather than just basic arithmetic e.g.. At that age, though, this won't be putting them ahead in terms of being able to do things the children not in that group can't do. Next school year, hopefully your DD will be able to slot right back in.

What I would pay attention to however is if/how it is affecting her attitude to learning. If she's starting to 'coast', not making any effort because being in middle group is easy and comfy. If she starts to think she mustn't attempt to solve hard questions (as they are reserved for the other table). That kind of stuff, I would address with her, rather than giving her extra work at home.

If there are no long-term effects on her attitude towards learning (and this you can address at home, but not by doing extra work), then no, a year in the 'wrong' ability group won't make any difference in the big picture. Similarly, a very able child who is appropriately placed in the top group, might not every year be appropriately challenged. But again, a year like that won't cause them to fall behind their potential in the long term.

No, it means absolutely nothing as long as whatever you all are doing is encouraging her curiosity and social development and creativity. Don't be bogging her down with 'extra work' at home to get her to a certain level. That's a pretty good way of knocking her confidence and killing any spark in her for loving learning and being curious.

Personally, I was not considered an especially high achiever at that age. I was very average all through primary and middle school. Probably because I went to a school that was really competitive and made learning such a miserable experience. I changed schools/moved to a new area for secondary school, found interests I loved, and graduated the top student in my class. I've consistently been at the top all through university and postgraduate school. I now have a PhD and a really successful career as an academic. The early years are important for instilling a love of learning, confidence and curiosity, not for getting to the top table and burning out. So I wouldn't be stressing about any of that now.

That said, much of assessment of children at this age is based on progress. If you dd has been doing what she's doing now for at least a year or longer, then she's not progressing. Either because she's being pushed above her ability and not grasping the basics or everyone is just being unrealistic. Mine is the same age as yours (well, she's 4, just started reception). She has definitely NOT being doing the same things for the past year. This time last year she could just about write her name and count to 20 with some help. She's reading now, can read full sentences and books on her own, and is doing basic arithmetic (adding and subtracting). If your dd was doing that a year ago, she's probably been pushed and burnt out. I think back off, give her time, figure out what she enjoys and support her in doing that. Don't stress about where she is relative to everyone else. If she's naturally bright, it will come when she's ready.

Good advice mind.

I wouldn't leave my child at a school where setting was overt at 5. I would question the ability of an infant teacher who could not differentiate work at this age without announcing ability groups.

That’s her chance of getting into Oxbridge or studying medicine shattered. She’ll be expected to put what table she was on in primary school on her UCAS form.

Seriously though, I wouldn’t be doing extra work with her to get her on the top table. I wouldn’t want to teach my small child that being top at everything is the most important thing.

She's 5! It really means nothing as to how she will be later on.

Encourage her, praise her for effort and not achievement, and above all, don't make educational achievement a big deal to her. Because she's 5!

Don't think people should get too worked up about "setting" - OP probably just means groups within the class for different topics. It may not be best practice, but it's certainly very common practice to have "top group/second group/..." for reading or writing or maths. Usually labelled as hedgehogs/rabbits/fish or whatever, but kids do notice if all the good readers are in the same group. As OP said the problem she's concerned about is getting easier work than last year not where she stands in the class.

She's more likely to get a knock to her confidence if she's sitting with a group of children who are whizzing through work she finds hard.
And you can't go on what they do at home, most, if not all, children can work better at home with 1-2-1 than in a classroom setting in a group.

Also all it means is that in that form there are (eg) 6 children currently performing better than her. In another form she might be top table, in another she might be third, it depends on the form.

My DD is in reception, where, it turns they are in approximate ability groups for learning to read. I only know this because her teacher commented that she is able but lacks confidence, so the teacher sometimes puts her in a lower ability group so she can see others struggling a bit and has the confidence to give it a go (this is what her teacher said at parents' evening). Perhaps that's what they're doing with your DD too?

I would be more concerned that your child is anxious about not being in the 'top group'. It doesn't matter and it really shouldn't matter to a five year old. Sounds like she needs reassurance to understand this and no, it won't affect her long term prospects!

I think you are stressing way too much OP for a 5 year old. Both my DC by 5-6-7 knew who was in top groups for maths and reading as they could see that they had harder work in eg maths. Hardly rocket science. They all know what reading books the others are on if they care to take any notice. In other subjects they are in different mixed ability groups, so it's not streaming as such, just subject differentiation for maths and reading. As our school is most overtly pushy the kids don't mostly seem bothered about what groups they are in. My DS really doesn't care. My DD does, as she's competitive. I'm not fussed as long as their group is right for them and they are happy and trust the teacher.

They should say NOT overtly pushy school. And I really would not push to do extra with her at home: that will make her feel like she needs extra help ...

When my DD was in reception, the top table was all girls who only made up a third of the class. Come year 2, it had totally evened out with equal boys and girls.
A lot of what is seen as intelligence at 4/5 is just sitting still and following instructions, which some girls are more able to do. Girls are also more receptive to efforts to push them at home.
I would relax and enjoy your DD. None of this matters in the long run.

Dc1 was in all the bottom sets until year 3. She is now in secondary and predicted top grades in all gcses. Grouping in reception classes means very little. Kids develop at different times. I really wouldn't give it a second thought.

I know that what dd is doing now she was also doing a year ago if not longer and is also coping well with much harder work at home.

She is 5 ffs, stop giving her 'harder' work at home, it undermines the school and is clearly having an effect on your dd's view of herself.

If she finishes school home work (which IMHO 5 year olds don't need) let her play and be a 5 year old.

I agree entirely with dash, you are investing far too much in academic achievement, she’s only 5.

As a teacher, I would say that that style of teaching is very very dated. At my school, having children sat on ability grouped tables just doesn't happen, not even in Y6. Differentiation happens through resources they are given to access the learning and some afternoon intervention groups. However some parents of higher attaining kids don't always approve of this as there is no clear indication that there kid is 'clever' but attainment for all pupils has really improved (particularly in maths) since we adopted this approach.

Supergran, just wondered, you say attainment for all pupils really improved. Does that include attainment of higher attaining kids as well, not just lower, middle attaining kids?

Op I think you need to try really hard to take a deep breath and step back. Your child is 5 and needs to enjoy school, not just work at the academic side. School is about so much more than that. We never did much in the way of academic extras at home but we did talk lots, played lots of games, had nice family days out. My children are both high achievers despite the fact that we never did extra school work at home. Use your time with your child to stimulate their interest in life and relax.

As a parent of a dd that has spent the majority of her school life going up and down between the top and middle set, I would say, don't worry about it. She is only 5 and I'm sure she will go up and down many more times before she leaves. The work really isn't that different, they all learn the same topics and if your dd finds the work easy and asks for extension work, then I'm sure she will get it.

Maybe she is picking up on your displeasure about the situation and that is affecting her confidence?

I think it is very easy to over think groupings etc when children are very young. As time goes by however, you see that it really doesn't matter much what group they are in at 5. If they start gaining confidence and perform better in class they will go up and on the other hand, the right thing for them may be to stay where they are or even move down.

Trust the teacher, they will want the best outcome for your dc.

Dd (July born) was in middle group for English and top group for maths in year 1. I didn't question it as the teacher knew how she compared to others in the class and i didnt. By year 6 she was in an extension group for both subjects. Having said that she is still better at maths than English! In year 7 i think she was top group for both. Year 8 i think she was moved down a set for English. Again i didn't question it, but it worked well for her as the teacher was good and the pace suited her and her marks actually improved. When she was in the top English group in year 7 she complained the others wrote too fast!

Irvine - yup attainment for all attainment levels across the whole school has improved in maths (though it is not just ability grouping we have changed)

It might be worth mentioning that schools look at "mastery" of a subject before moving on. It sometimes seems that my DD is covering something for a long time but in reality the teacher is making sure she has a firm grasp of the basics before rushing to the next topic. They seem to learn in fits and starts too. You feel they're not getting anywhere and then all of a sudden, they spout huge amounts of new knowledge.