How to discuss this with the teacher?

[ChocOrange3]

I am FUMING

So, before I unleash I want to take a deep breath and get advice on here.

My DS is in Year 4 and he is very bright and is quite strong in maths. He has learnt some methods at home which he is capable of doing but which are contrary to the schools methods. A couple of weeks ago they were doing multiplication in class and the teacher was teaching them the grid method. DS put his hand up and asked if he could do it his way (the old fashioned column way) and the teacher said to him, in front of the whole class: "what makes you think you are so special and important that you get to do it your way".

I have verified this with another child in the class (who is a very responsible and trustworthy child) who confirms that is what she said.

So I want to convince her to allow him to use his methods if he is proving to be capable and not disrupting the learning of others but more importantly, how do I convey that it is in no way appropriate to talk to an 8 year old like that??

TIA

I don’t think I (and several other posters) have misinterpreted anything. This is a non issue.

Thanks haggis yes I reread that again. I do also want to understand the schools approach so I can support it though. It’s difficult to explain to DS why he needs to do it that way if I don’t know. And I don’t really think it’s right to say “just because you have to” as i think it’s good to understand why too.

Well people on here have told you why.

The children have maths targets, the grid method is one of those targets, she can't tick colum method can she? Because that's no what they are learning!!

Great your son is a whizz at maths and I bet the teacher is fully in awe of his knowledge

Having worked in year 4 and now year 5. Grid method is essential for learning multiplication calculations prior to learning column method. He will move onto column method later on in the year, but at present he needs to learn the methods the school (not the teacher) are teaching him, so that a) he has a clear understanding of place value, b) he doesn't get confused when the multiplication goes from single digits to two digits and c) he is staying within the year 4 curriculum.

If the teacher spoke in a nasty way then definitely have a chat with them. It may have been said 'tongue in cheek' or it maybe that the teacher was having a difficult day and your ds was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I think you can separate this into twio different issues. One is worth raising with the teacher, the other is not.

The method is not worth raising with the teacher. Having the grid method as 'a tool in his toolbox' will do him no harm, and quite a lot of good in terms of understanding what is really going on when he moves on to short and long multiplication methods - so he will know it is not '2x4' but '200 x 4', or 20x40, for example, and thus will not make the uistakes in place value that are common when children can 'crank the handle' to get the answer but really don't understand what's going on. Say to your son that the grid method is really interesting, because it exposes the 'internal workings' of multiplication - get him to spot how the different versions map onto one another and explain to you how the place value is represented in each method - and that it is always useful to have a variety of tools to crack a range of mathematical problems in future.

The other issue, which MAY be worth raising with the teacher, is how she spoke to him. Whether it is worth raising depends on whether this is a 'one off', and she is generally reasonable and respectful in the way she speaks to the class, or whether sarcastic / belittling comments are commonplace. If it seems that they are commonplace, then initially approaching it in a 'when you said x, my child felt y, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but they were upset' way could be worthwhile, and if it is frequent and continues, it may be worth having a word with the head along the same lines.

However, if it was a generally decent teacher having an off moment, just explain to your child that his teacher must have been feeling a bit tired or grumpy that day, as she doesn't normally speak like that, and you're sure she'll have felt sorry afterwards, and everyone can move on.

Have you ever read To Kill a Mockingbird? A similar thing happens. Girl goes to school already able to read. Teacher feels threatened (and is probably too lazy to assign extension work) and declares that girl absolutely must learn by the school's method. The father's advice is to humour the teacher. I think it's good advice. You child will encounter a lot of petty idiots in his life, it's good that he learns how to deal with them now. Learning a different method (while completely unhelpful-all complicated maths is done with a calculator so you really don't need to be able to do any particular method of mental maths if we're going to be honest so long as you are able to do it in order to fully understand the concept of what multiplication is), won't do him any harm either. This may not be a good lesson in maths but it is a great lesson in diplomacy and politics.

He needs to learn the schools method. Surely a bright child can understand that there's different ways of doing it and the more ways he's able to do it the better? And PP have explained fully why the grid method is so important.

Your only issue should be the way the teacher handled it, which I agree is bad. By focusing on the issue of the method you will get into a completely unnecessary discussion and put the teacher on the defensive because she is in the right on the method issue, whatever you choose to believe.

Don't go in "fuming", ask to discuss what happened because your son is upset at how she spoke to him. That's the only issue that needs discussing (and if she's otherwise a brilliant teacher I'd be inclined to let it go)

So teachers are lazy, feel threatened and are petty idiots? Nice.....

Or, they’ve spent ages planning lessons around a topic, probably spent half the lesson going through it as a class with some activities, etc. Then a child says ‘miss can’t i just do it my way?’ Well no, you can’t. Maybe teacher could have phrased it differently, but genuinely, what makes him special? They are all learning something new together. Surely its an advantage to know more than one way to do something?

It’s really not that big an issue. They have to teach it, he has to learn it.

I think it's a different oblomov, btw!

You also need to realise that when it comes to his test he will get marks for showing his method. If they are expecting the school's method he will get zero marks for that part.

My DS who was very able at mental arithmetic got 25% on a Maths Test once despite getting all the answers correct. there were 4 mars per question 3 for the method and 1 for the answer. He just wrote the answer because he "knew" the answer. He had to be taught that if the question asks to show the method then you must show the method.

You can't just ignore new methods. I was taught to approach a long sum from left to right. Nowadays they use BIDMAS which gives an entirely different answer to the same question set.

There are other ways to stretch his Maths. Perhaps look at the Primary Maths Challenges.

I think it is also worth thinking about whether your child really UNDERSTANDS the methods that he has been taught at home. For example I was teaching a child quite like your son short division, and used place value counters to illustrate exchange. their face was comical 'You mean that's what's really going on? i just did it, i didn't know WHY'

If your child does e.g. 64 x 26 = using the standard written algorithm, ask them to explain to you the place value of each step, and how it is preserved within the column layout. if they can't, there is a chance that they can 'do the steps' but they don't really understand what is going on. The grid method (and expanded column method as a brief intermediate explanation step)is really useful way of securing that understanding.

I won't bother repeating what everyone else has already said.
The teacher didn't handle it particularly well but I've had a few cocky able mathematicians over the years who are lovely children but do not come across politel when they question things and have an I know better than you attitude. Just keep it in mind.

This was two weeks ago and you're still fuming?

Honestly I'd pick your battles and asking the teacher to explain her rationale for teaching something on the syllabus and expecting all children to know it is not a good use of anyone's time.

Ttbb, I don't think the teacher feel threatened by a child knowing column method.....

Two issues here: the learning a new method and the way the teacher spoke to him.

Now, him being expected to use the new method is completely reasonable and you'd be some muppet to go in and complain about that. If he can already do it one way, learning to do it another can only be good. It won't harm him. The expectation was that he will learn to do it in a particular way, therefore he's gonna do it.

Him having an "I know better than you" and expecting to be allowed to not do it just because is a harmful attitude to let him away with.

Secondly: if how it's been reported is true, the teacher shouldn't have spoken to him that way. Yanbu to talk to them about that.

Allthebestnamesareused Not quite.

In primary tests, they can sometimes get a mark for showing a viable method (any one will do) as long as it would lead to the correct answer. If they then get a digit wrong, or put the wrong answer in the actual box, they could at least get one mark for the method. If they only put the answer, they will get two marks if it's correct, even with no method shown at all. If it's incorrect, they'll get zero, and there would be no method shown to possibly give them a point. That's why they're encouraged to show their workings out.

No national test will demand or expect to see "the school's method," because there is no one method to be used. Many are taught. Obviously some are more appropriate to use than others in certain circumstances, depending on the numbers involved. For example, 3007 - 2998 would be much better served counting along a number line than using column subtraction, but if they arrive at the correct answer, they won't be penalised.

However, if a teacher is teaching a specific method in class, then that is the one to use in that lesson, in order to practise the skill, regardless of whether they prefer another one.

No comments about the behaviour of the teacher.
However imo grid method is not a very good one. There is no need for it. As for expanding brackets later, no advantage over expanding it directly from double and triple brackets. It is actually longer.
If the pupil knows a method, it is correct mathematically and the pupil can get the right answers by using it, except for the odd mistakes, then it is fine to use.
I might be wrong but I believe that recent changes in KS2 Maths in 2014 indicated that pupils must know formal written method for multiplication and in the Appendix it shows column method for multiplication. So if a kid knows how to do and can do it accurately, what is the problem really?

Knowing the grid method is really useful at a later stage when it comes algebra, expanding double brackets and factorising into brackets, for example as a method of solving quadratic equations.

Grid method does not lead to factorisation easily. Factorisation can be done by inspection, by grouping for quad func or factor theorem for higher order polynomial.

Agree that you can expand double brackets with it but it takes longer and same chance of making mistakes as just expanding it directly.
For basic Maths, knowing a method very well is much better then knowing many methods and can't do it fluently.

Have to agree with everyone else.
If the teacher spoke as you have reported, after your dc politely made an innocent request, then yes, they could have handled it better. However, my response wouldn't be to be "furious", mine would have been to have listened to my dc, empathised, had a bit of a chat about why they thought the teacher might have said that. Then my dc would almost certainly understand that people make mistakes - often when they are tired, under pressure, or whatever, and that, in the whole scheme of things, it wasn't really anything to get worked up about, as long as the teacher wasn't habitually going around 'humiliating' people. I'd let my dc come to this conclusion though.

Separately from that, the only issue here is the fact that you don't seem to accept that your child has to follow the curriculum. If you can't understand that, then the answer is probably to home ed, and then you can use whatever methods you want, and pick and choose which bits of the curriculum to miss out.

a) he has a clear understanding of place value, b) he doesn't get confused when the multiplication goes from single digits to two digits and c) he is staying within the year 4 curriculum.

Oiiiie lou are you DS's teacher? In DS's case: already understands place value, could do 2x2 digit multiplication without any formal written methods so clearly not confused by adding extra digit. Staying within year 4 curriculum is not actually an aim in life or a necessity of following the national curriculum. OP's DS should learn different methods, but those aren't great justifications.

OP, it's a natural thing for your son to ask and teacher shouldn't have been rude. But yes, he should learn it. It gives him another way to visualise it which may be useful sometimes and will check his understanding.

If he's properly understood his own method, it'll take 5 minutes to grasp. So I hope the teacher has some good extension work available, but fear from their attitude they won't.

It's not 'the school's method - it will be one of several that they learn to enable children to have built up a bank of possibilities - they will then select between these methods independently when they do further work/as they move through School.

Also 'because that's what he's been asked to do' is a pretty valid reason in itself - he needs to do what he is told in a classroom environment (obviously within reason)!

However, if that is how the teacher spoke to him, that in itself is out of order and you would be right to address this with them.

GHGN, having taught maths to many students, s lot of whom have specific learning difficulties, I have to disagree. Some students I have taught have only been able to get the hang of factorising into 2 brackets by doing a grid ' in reverse' and are much more likely to multiply 2 brackets correctly if they put it into a grid. After a lot of practice with a grid, some are able to transfer to other methods but not all. Most students find it helpful as a way to understand that each term must be multiplied by every term in the other bracket.