Should we move to private school

[geekinheels]

Some background
We live in an area with an excellent state primary (ofsted “outstanding”, very community oriented) within walking distance. Generally very happy with the school.
Our plan has always been to send both DDs to private secondary schools nearby. However recently I’m wondering if we should start them earlier.

In terms of affordability, we can currently afford DD1’s fees without too much of a problem. We can’t afford two on just DH’s salary, but I’m in a career transition so paying to be in training and not earning atm. In about 2-3 years time I should be able to be in a professional job earning enough to cover DD2’s fees. However this is uncertain til I finish training and this is really what makes us worry that if we can’t afford to put DD2 in the same school when the time comes, how unfair it would be?

So We are really debating whether we should try to get DD1 in for 7+ (currently in year 1) for a nearby very well-regarded private school. If the local state primary is bad we’d be more incentivised but it’s actually a great school and DD1 is thriving. The reason for wanting to move is really to give them the best of the best. Also I want to avoid doing stressful 11+ exams and application processes, as the students who are in the lower school would automatically get a place at the higher school. Both DH and I were privately educated for a large chunk of our education and appreciate the opportunities it brings.

Really a bit of a first world problem as we feel we are in a really fortunate position to be thinking about our options, but would appreciate comments and thoughts and discussions

sevennation I haven't thought too far yet but if going state secondary we'd probably look at fortismere or HBS, any other recommendations?

by HBS do you mean Henrietta Barnett? 2,700 applicants for 90 places last year.....

Those stats are not in themselves evidence of “positive discrimination”!

You’re not confident you can afford fees for two DC - the costs are huge - and this is dependent on you completing your training, getting a job and making quick progression, which is uncertain, so IMO it seems a bad plan to move DD1 now, especially when she is happy and doing well at her current school.

11+ entry will be more competitive so you’ll need options and a backup plan if finances or your DC are not suited to or don’t get into your preferred selective schools.

Some selective schools that have intakes at 4 and 7 ask parents of DC who do not keep up to leave: they won’t advertise this.

yes I know, it's insane, which is why I want to avoid the 11+ exams...
with that said, friends' kids got into QE and Latymer, so feels doable with enough tutoring

London “ superselective” state schools are something else altogether. More selective than private schools.

The sutton trust and others have shown that disproportionate places go to DC from prep schools geared up for the entrance tests.

dozer
sorry I'm being a bit slow, can you explain why it's not positive discrimination? it's the Head's own wording when he gave out those numbers.

I should also add that I'm not confident we can afford two fees for two DCs, but we haven't formally approached the grandparents yet. We think we may be able to get some contribution, if not the full fee.

Also, I don't need quick progression to afford DD2's fees. The entry level salary of the kind of jobs I can get after training would be more than enough to cover DD2's fees.

yes I see people do private primary, so they can save money by going to grammar schools. though it's not a path we particularly want to go down

My children went into private from state at 11+ and I wish we'd moved them across earlier. I simply cannot state strongly enough how much better the private school is than their previous state school - they're worlds apart in every single way.

I started off delighted with our outstanding state school at 4, and at that stage wasn't considering private until secondary. But the junior years in that outstanding state school were awful - poor discipline, poor communication, no stretching or differentiation for brighter students, limited extra curricular opportunities, poor quality sport taught by class teacher, poor quality music/art again taught by the class teacher. Honestly, my children learnt nearly nothing in junior school, except for a quick flurry of "how to pass SATS" in year 6. Yet this was a well regarded, outstanding rated school - the best the state system has to offer.

Despite being top of the state school class, I needed to get them tutored to pass the 11+ entrance exams. They started at the private school towards the bottom of the year, but by end of Y7, having had a full year of quality teaching, they had risen to the top 10% of the class (and in the top 1-2 of the not previously taught subjects like Latin and Spanish where they weren't having to play catch up). Both children. It just can't be a co-incidence, it was down to the disadvantage/poor teaching that they'd had state compared to the advantages/better teaching that the prep school children had. And the quality sports, drama and music that they do is just completely different to the state school offering.

That said, private school is very expensive. I wouldn't send one if I couldn't afford to send both, and I would never, ever put myself in a situation where I might have to pull my children out of their private school due to finances.

Hi OP

I do see your dilemma. Why not enter your daughter in for the 7+ and see whether she gets a place? I think it involves an exam, an interview and a group assessment (but I may be wrong - my children are younger so I only know what other parents have told me). I do know quite a few smart kids who have gone in for the 7+ at that school and haven't been offered a place - so entry is not guaranteed by any means.

Does that school actually have a sibling policy? There are quite a few North London schools that don't give siblings priority but I don't know about that one. It might be worth finding out - if you will have any sort of journey, having to get two kids to different schools at the same time may be awful.

Re the cost - only you can have a sense of how likely it will be that you will be able to afford the fees for both. I think if there was any chance that it may be a stretch, I wouldn't want to take the risk. It won't just be the fees - there will also be the uniform, the skiing trip, the hiking trip in Paraguay etc.

I think you need to go in eyes wide open. Of course it’s about ability but almost all the kids applying are “able”. So if you have a choice between a child who comes with the full endorsement of the preprep head whom you know and trust verse a kid you’ve had a snapshot of and who hasn’t had the same breadth or depth of education - which would you pick? The prepreps are almost all selective and have already weeded out some. The Junior head needs to send the Senior school the most secure picks possible so they don’t slip down the league table.

This is a business at its core. The rest is really all window dressing.

I agree with pp that the difference between state and private really starts to show after year 3. The state school is going to be driven to get the highest SATS possible which is about the school not your child. The prep is going to be judged on where it gets your kid in. Two very different drivers.

For state secondaries I don’t think you can do better than Alexandra Park School. It’s a proper comp and get great results and not every kid is tutored within an inch of their life. Fortismere hasn’t exactly gotten glowing reports lately. Lots of local parents feeling like the academic success is driven largely by the parents deploying tutors when it all goes wrong.

The superselective state schools like HBS and QE boys are a breed apart and I wouldn’t wish that much pressure on any kid.

Have you factored in fee inflation, at 5% per year they'll basically double by sixth form from y3

VeryPunny - What top prep is £36,000 a year? Is that a boarding one? Surely not day? Eton is not much more than that!

We moved our son in Year 3 (now y5) from state to private even though Mumsnet consensus was not to move him for much the same reasons you have been given. We are in London but our local independent schools aren't quite as competitive as the N London ones sound! The teaching, sports etc are much better than at his state school which was outstanding and which we were happy with (we moved for class size and because he was quiet and prone to being overlooked). Even so, we don't think he will reach 11+ standard without tutoring, but we are trying for super selective grammar.

I took the £36k to be the fees for two children - so £18k each (more or less).

Sorry, it was a typo. I meant it would be about £36k between 7+ and 11+. Actually I have it totally wrong - preps here are about £12 k a year so four years between 7+ and 11+ would be £48k

The school the OP is thinking of is close to £7k a term so £21k a year, 42 for two kids.

I think that before you do anything else you need to discuss with parents re financing. Presumably if you were both privately educated and are anticipating decent inheritance (although one hopes not soon) that is your starting point.
If you can firm up the financial position it seems well thought through to start dd1 a little earlier. If finances cannot be secure it would feel wrong to start down a path where you cannot guarantee equal chances to both girls

mrsm43s what you said is kind of what I worry about would happen if we move to private after 11+

crucru thank you, yes increasingly it does feel like we should just go for a place at 7+ and see if we are offered a place, then decide. DH and I also feel like if an offer is at offer, it can make it easier to talk to the grandparents about potential contributions on the fees.

The school said there is no sibling preference. However, in a case when a sibling has a similar ranking compared to another child, the sibling may be given priority. Our plan is to start DD2 at the local state primary anyway, and go for the 7+ too, and see if she can get in.

They said that last year they had about 30 siblings and took about 15. Had they applied no sibling preference they'd have taken about five of that group, so quite significant considering that many private selective schools have no sibling policy.

sevennation thanks, it does make sense to be mentally prepared for DD1 not to get through. thanks for the tips on APS and Fortismere as well

hiyasmin yes I'm aware of the fee increase. both mine and DH's careers are on the way up and so our combined earnings are likely to outgrow the fee inflation. obviously there is no 100% job security but I guess that's the risk lots of parents would have to take when they go for private education.

that's really interesting. I suppose it makes sense that the parents would already know the kind of things the school is looking for in exams and interviews, plus siblings presumably have some similarities in intelligence and upbringing (though not all)

AJP yes definitely it's something on our minds to discuss with parents. I've casually mentioned the ideas to my parents already and they are very supportive

it's too big a commitment to just "hope" you can afford it in the future. You're not in the position to pay for it yet imo.
Your dd is happy. You have a great state secondary if you need it. Just hang in there and start tutoring in January of yr4.

If your DC is challenged in the state school, then stay in (but realize she is behind the selective private). If she is already ahead and bored then she would definitely benefit from the move.