Phonics in Y4?

[GetTheGoodLookingGuy]

I'm a TA and have just moved from KS1 into Y4, with a cohort which has always been very low ability. We're a RWI school, and a large percentage of them had full phonic sessions continuing last year, in place of guided reading. We've identified about 15-20 children who are not yet off the RWI scheme, and, as I'm the only one RWI trained, I'm the one looking at doing phonics with them. However, they're Y4 now, so, do we:

a) Attempt to go the whole hog and have four RWI sessions a week, pretty much like they would have in KS1 (Would have to use guided reading time for this, which would be a pain, but I expect I could argue for it if they really needed it.

b) Treat it as a phonics intervention, rather than full on phonics. 1x twenty minute session per week per group, mostly recapping sounds and blending and segmenting - less emphasis on the guided reading aspect of RWI as they'll have guided reading as well.

c) Don't do any phonics at all, because if they were going to learn to read through phonics by now, they would have already. (They can all "read" - the lowest are on blue books [but are also relatively recent EAL arrivals] but none of them are higher than purple).

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can you do some phonics through guided reading sessions? As you say regular phonics sessions don't seem to be working so perhaps these children need to experience phonics within real words. For example picking out a word and asking for rhyming words. Ask children to spot particular letter patterns on a page. Select inknown words and ask pupils to create their own sentence for them.
I am probably teaching you to suck eggs so sorry if so.

It's a RWI school, but you as the newly arrived TA are the most qualified/experienced?

In those circumstances, you need to be doing either a) or b) because it seems highly likely that they were not well tacught int he first place.

Really "not well taught in the first place". Does this mean you believe that 100% of pupils learn only through phonics? Have you ever heard of flogging a dead horse?

Clearly, you haven't read any recent reading research from the last fifteen years or seen what high quality phonics teaching looks like - it isn't a 'belief'.

Nothing in this world works for all of the people all of the time. Phonics is an excellent method of teaching reading and works for almost everyone but if it hasn't worked by year 4 something needs to be added. You do realise that English is only 86% phonic (without learning many rules and their exceptions) and many of the words early readers encounter do not fit this model. Research and real life do not always match up. I am responsible for dealing with SEN pupils who have been unable to learn to read with phonics or not made progress. If it was 100% effective why do we still have pupils who are not meeting expectations at the end of primary school? Please don't diss the teaching profession by intimating that all those pupils were not taught "high quality phonics".

Nothing in this world works for all of the people all of the time.
High quality phonics works at around a 96% success rate in all.sorts of different schools.

but if it hasn't worked by year 4 something needs to be added.
The OP describes some of the children as recent EAL arrivals.

You do realise that English is only 86% phonic (without learning many rules and their exceptions) and many of the words early readers encounter do not fit this model
You do realise that that figure is plucked from thin air and that high quality phonics training would show you that a)most words do b)most Y1 children learn them with ease?

I am responsible for dealing with SEN pupils who have been unable to learn to read with phonics or not made progress
It's certainly true that a few children struggle with phonics - but have such difficulties that they also struggle using other methods. I've met three in 25 years who genuinely couldn't. All went on to different settings that better suited their needs after primary school. But for older NT children who haven't either been learning phonics for very long or haven't received decent phonics teaching then the last thing you should be doing is confusing them with mixed methods that consistently fail one in five children. Why do you think so many Y7 high school remedial teachers talk of their despair in having to teach non-readers phonics properly to enable them to finally read? Why is phonics the most successful adult literacy strategy?

Please don't diss the teaching profession by intimating that all those pupils were not taught "high quality phonics"
I'll 'diss' who I like, thanks - there's plenty of poor practice/lack of phonics knowledge about, some of it exemplified on this thread.

"Really "not well taught in the first place". Does this mean you believe that 100% of pupils learn only through phonics? "

No, it means that as the brand new TA is the only person trained in the method, whoever has been doing it before may not have been properly prepared and therefore not doing it well.

Having an entire group of children after 4 years of teaching not grasping reading would suggest that something has gone wrong with the teaching (recent EAL arrivals excepted). I wouldn't expect that many at the start of yr 2.

They need to be doing it daily really. Your recent arrival with EAL should make pretty rapid progress. Is there an option to use something that isn't RWI? Do they have anything aimed at older children that need phonics intervention?

Feenie
the phonics arguemnt will go on for ever. Suffice it to say that in 40 years of teaching those who failed to learn to read a great many more than 3 in 25 years had problems with phonics.
86% plucked from the air? Well possibly as long as you count the 8 different ways of spelling the long a sound as phonically regular!
ai - hair / ay - hare / a-e - fate/ e - e fete/ eig - reign/ a - apron/ eigh - weigh / e - cafe /ea - break / ey - they
Yes children do easily learn irregular common words easily because they see and spell them so often. They are not logical - why is there an e on the end of house?
Please refer back to my post when I said "phonics is an excellent method of teaching reading for almost everyone".

"86% plucked from the air?"

Rudolf Flesch concluded in his 1955 book “Why Johnny Can’t Read” that English is 97.4% phonetic. Denise Eide, in her recent book “Uncovering the Logic of English,” states that English is 98% phonetic. Others argue that it is 100% phonetic. If a word wasn't phonetic it wouldn't be a word.
"Well possibly as long as you count the 8 different ways of spelling the long a sound as phonically regular! ..ai - hair / ay - hare / a-e - fate/ e - e fete/ eig - reign/ a - apron/ eigh - weigh / e - cafe /ea - break / ey - they"

I'm afraid your phonic knowledge is letting you down badly

Hare and hair don't have an /ae / sound.
The sound /ae/ can be spelt ay, ai,a-e, ea, ey, eigh, ei, a, aigh, et, ae, (day, rain, name, great, grey, eight, veil, David, straight, ballet, sundae) Café is obviously borrowed from the French.

"why is there an e on the end of house?" Because in the days before printing and 'universal' literacy scribes were paid by the letter so they added a letter e to the end of words whenever possible. In phonics children are taught that is an alternative spelling for the sound /s/

The vast majority of Year 1 children would confidently tell you that is an alternative spelling of /air/ after just a few weeks.

And they would be probably very amused that you mistook them as /ai/ sounds. Which would be funny as a lay parent - but a serious lack of basic phonics knowledge as someone ' in charge' of SEN children who struggle to read

Suffice it to say that in 40 years of teaching those who failed to learn to read a great many more than 3 in 25 years had problems with phonics.

I can see why. Poor children And there's no way you've taught phonics instead of mixed methods for 40 years.

You are the rudest and most intolerant person. One may disagree with another but only the most ignorant find it necessary to to be so rude because they can't agrree. For your information I have been extremely successful in my teaching. My dyslexic pupils achieved A grades and went on to university. My pupils with language impairment and (diagnosed by a speech and language therapist with an inability to blend sounds but definitely not needing a special school) achieved similarly. I could go on but's what's the point. I shall not be returning to this thread. After retirement I was asked back for periods of time to teach specific pupils who were failing.
But why go on? You won't don't want to believe anyone who doesn't conform to your narrow views. I shall not return to this thread so please don't bother to reply.

It's sad to see very dedicated, knowledgeable teacher just stating the fact is taken as being "rude".
3 failing in 25 years I can appreciate that the child had difficulty rather than teaching. But "great many more in 40 years", I am inclined to question the method rather than individual children having difficulty. And proudly stating that makes me wary as a parent. So what did you do to help those failing every year? Were they still failing just before you retired? Don't you ever question your way?

Yeah, I think it's odd comment to make when you are appealing your methods work. I can understand stating 1, 2, or none in 40 years could mean better outcome, but great many in 40 years sounds like you were doing worse than teacher who has less career.

You are the rudest and most intolerant person.

You stated that phonics doesn't work for everyone but gave an example that a 5 year old with basic phonics knowledge would have the ability to pick apart.

You also said that you'd met many children over 40 years for whom phonics has failed. But it's obvious from your posts that those children were taught mixed methods, and not high quality phonics. How would you know if high quality phonics teaching works if you've never taught it, don't know how to and have no incentive at all to find out? If I knew of schools that teach all their children to read, no matter what, I wouldn't be proclaiming in a forum that it couldn't possibly work, I'd damn well find out how, regardless.

I'm more concerned about the children who have been/are being failed than saving your blushes, I'm afraid. It needn't happen with some decent training - and the blinkers off.