Appeal hearing advice - Primary prejudice not ICS

[Lilyminnie]

I was wondering if anyone with any knowledge of the primary appeal system could offer any advice please?

The school we are appealing to is not in our local area, therefore our daughter did not get a place based on distance - we were aware of this when we applied and were prepared to appeal. The school has a PAN of 58 and an anticipated total of 415 pupils on roll in Sept.
RY-58
YR1-61
YR2-57
YR3-58
YR4-59
YR5-58
YR6-64
The school states overcrowding as its main reason for not admitting more pupils - crowded corridors, poor toilet facilities, small playground etc....It states the net capacity is 401 with a PAN of 58 yet they then go on to say that the PAN will increase to 60 from 2018/19! This suggests to me that they believe they can cope with more pupils....

There are over 10 appealing so I'm looking for advice please on what angle to base my argument on at the appeal hearing. Our reasons for wanting our daughter to attend are based around the fact that we loved the school when we visited (both in education so basing our opinion on both personal and professional judgement), its close to our places of work, its a feeder school for my daughters nursery so there would be a smooth transition, our youngest daughter still attends that nursery and the school has fantastic performing arts facilities - my daughter is passionate about drama, dance etc

Any advice please as I am aware that some of our reasons are very weak to base an appeal on....

Thanks for your time xx

58 is a strange PAN to have. It suggests they are holding back 2 places for appeals which is not allowed. Unless there is building work in progress or planned, the planned increase in PAN strongly suggests they can cope with 2 additional pupils. I would not be surprised if the appeal panel admit 2 appellants. I would, however, be surprised if they admit any more than that as 2 will take the school up to the class size limit.

Of the items you list the only one that should carry any weight with the appeal panel is the performing arts facilities and your daughter being passionate about drama, dance, etc. I would recommend seeing if you can develop that further. What do they offer that isn't available at the allocated school because they've got these facilities? I would also look for any other extra-curricular activities that are relevant to your daughter.

Looking at your other reasons...

• it is good that you love the school but that isn't a reason for the panel to admit

• being close to your places of work makes it convenient for you but doesn't really affect your daughter. The appeal panel is interested in things that will make a difference to her

• the smooth transition might be worth a mention but no more than that. The appeal panel is unlikely to be interested unless there are specific reasons why your daughter needs a smooth transition more than other children of her age

• your youngest daughter attending the nursery is not relevant as it isn't about the daughter for whom you are appealing

As I say, I think there is a good chance the appeal panel will admit two children. They will have to compare cases to decide which two to admit. Your chances of success therefore depend as much on the strength of the other cases as on your own. All you can do is make the strongest case you can.

Thanks for your reply. That helps me to understand what angle to base my argument on and what not to put too much emphasis on. Is it worth a mention that the allocated school is a faith school (RC) and we are of no faith or should I steer clear of that?

My daughter did not get any of our 3 preferences and was originally given a completely inappropriate school. She gained a place at the current allocated school from a waiting list. We put her on a number of waiting lists in the hope that she would get a place somewhere else otherwise our option would have been to pay private if we were unsuccessful at this appeal and she was still at the original school!

Thanks x

All schools are expected to follow a broadly Christian (or alternative religion) approach and have acts of worship so on paper because her allocated school is RC and this school is non denomination Christian I wouldn't put too much of an emphasis on it. Good luck.

Thank you xx

Are there currently any regulations that state the number of toilets to pupils? I can't seem to find such info...the school states that it currently has only only 19 toilets and 3 urinals facilitate current demand but then they go on to say they will be increasing the PAN to 60!

My reaction is the same as prh's; it's strange to set a PAN at 58 and it does tend to suggest that the de facto PAN is 60 with 2 coming in via appeal.

Focus on what your child needs - especially around performing arts - but be aware that the panel may want to know more about your child's "passion" and why this school is so well placed to support it.

OP I would also not let slip the gem that your opinion of the school was based on your professional judgement. There is not a secret handshake in the appeals process!

Agree that you should generally avoid faith issues, particularly in the situation you describe. You are appealing for the school you want, not against the school you've been allocated.

There are no regulations on the number of toilets a school should have. However, government advice suggests 1 toilet and washbasin per 20 pupils should be adequate for ages 5-11. Urinals are not mentioned. This suggests they may be a little tight on facilities. However, as they intend to increase PAN to 60 they must think they can cope with up to 420 pupils.

Thank you for all of your help. I suppose I am finding it difficult as the main reasons we want her to go there are purely convenience based (close to work/nursery, friends from nursery going etc) second to the fact that it's a great school! I know that these reasons are weak but then I'm finding it hard to find reasons that would carry a stronger argument at appeal. At the end of the day she is only 4 so she hasn't particularly found her major strengths/weaknesses, likes/dislikes yet. She is very independent and creative, she loves drawing, drama and dancing and currently struggles with numeracy but excels with language and literacy- these all seem quite normal for a 4 year old or am I missing something?

I just want to go in and say the right things to give it my best shot xx

It is not the case that all 4 year olds love drawing, drama and dancing. Some do, some don't. The differences may become clearer as children grow older but some interests and abilities will already be apparent. Those are the things around which you should build your case. Look at weaknesses as well as strengths. If she is struggling with numeracy more than the average 4 year old and the school has particularly good provision to help children with numeracy that is worth mentioning, for example.

There are some regs that are around toilets which are the Education (School premises) Regulations 1999. They state that toilets for over 8s must be separate male female and that there should be 1 toilet for every 20 pupils aged over 5 and 1 toilet for every 10 pupils for age under 5. Urinals are never mentioned in the regs.
If you assume 420 pupils and 60 in reception are age 4 then that is 6 toilets and then 18 for the rest of the school. So in theory they need and extra 4 toilets but I think being realistically the 3 urinals would count as matching that requirement.
My suspicion from experience of appeals is, given there are 10 appeals, that quite a few of the appeals will be based around the fact that child is currently in the nursery. As PRH says that will have zero weight at appeal, so whilst there is no harm in saying she goes to the nursery I would steer well clear of that area and try and find other positives like the performing arts facilities.

admission - The 1999 regulations were modified in 2012 so that they only apply to maintained schools in Wales. In England they have been replaced by the 2012 regulations which do not specify the number of toilets. They simply specify separate male and female facilities for over 8s. However, as per my earlier post, government guidelines note that there is no regulation but recommend 1 toilet per 20 pupils.

Great thanks for your responses. I'm hoping that the other appellents are putting emphasis on nursery/distance to school etc so we are definitely now building our case based around reasons why the school would support our daughter's needs rather than why it might be more convenient for her to go there!

It does seem that they lack enough toilets but I'm going with the fact that they must presume they can cope given that they will be increasing the PAN.

Well will find out soon enough then at least this whole stressful situation will be over with xx

If its good at performing arts can you prove that she already does classes in this and has a special aptitude?

She attends weekly classes in both drama and dancing and is part of a local theatre/performing arts school but as yet she has no certificates etc so I'm not sure I can prove she has a special aptitude at her age just yet.....I wouldn't say she was 'gifted' in that area, more that she has a passion for it and is a very creative child.

PRH thank you for the update, shame my LA seem to have missed that one and are still using it as a reason for not admitting.

My first thought, looking at that PAN of 58, was that there may be building or refurbishment work planned?

Could you ask to see the school why the low PAN for reception? If it is related to refurbishment then this stuff would also be discussed by Resources committees (to agree spend) so it wouldn't be secret.

That said, if the PAN had been 60 and you still wouldn't have got a place based on distance you'll need to beef up your reasons. You've had some good advice already about that. A two-pronged argument that establishes a) the school can admit two more pupils in reception b) why this school is most suitable for your daughter.

For a long time my school (I'm a governor) was obsessed with the refurbishment of toilets and appeared on every document published about spending and potential spending. And strategy

To be fair to your LA, admission, the version of the 1999 regulations on legislation.gov.uk has not been updated so someone looking at those regulations may not realise that they no longer apply in England. You have to look at the 2012 regulations (the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012) to find that regulation 3 inserted an additional clause into the 1999 regulations limiting their applicability to Wales.

The result of the change is that the regulations for England are far less prescriptive than those for Wales. It isn't just around toilets. There are a lot of things that are required by the regulations in Wales but are no longer required in England.

They simply specify separate male and female facilities for over 8s.

That is only if the facilities don't open into a communal area and have sinks inside right? It only needs to be male/female split if it's cubicles with sinks outside? You could provide universal facilities for over 8's in that circumstances, the same as most disabled toilets are universal, not sex specific.

That is only if the facilities don't open into a communal area and have sinks inside right

The England regulations say that a toilet facility can be unisex provided it is in a room that can be locked from inside which is designed for use by one pupil at a time. They don't specify what is meant by "toilet facility" so it is not clear whether the room must contain a sink, although I would say that is implied by the context.

Thanks prh47bridge, DD's school recently opened unisex ones and DD has been much happier due to them both being cleaner, and also that she's in the "wrong toilets" by too many older kids. She is under 8 though so I wasn't sure if that was the reason, but I'm pretty sure it's the single use thing.