How to choose state primary school ? Interpreting the results ..

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Hi all

I am trying to understand the SAT results tables. I am comparing some state schools for Richmond.

which result is more important? the % of the pupils meeting the expected standards or % that over achieves . for example, an outstanding school has 60% meeting expectation . this seems low to me. then a good school by Ofsted had over 70% and the same or slightly better % for exceeding expectations (but individual scores are not as good) . should this be a factor?

One of the outstanding schools we are considering has over national average results for progress in reading and maths but writing is lower .

when you look at a school with 90% meeting expectations and 25% outperforming children has the same average score in reading and match say 108 or 107 .

I am totally confused. Anyone who can help how to interpret these?

Thank you

Look at progress. Cohorts vary quite a lot, and in an area like Richmond many will be tutored. So I would stop interpreting results and go and visit schools.

Forget SATS. Last year was the first test under the new curriculum, so lots of normally good schools scored badly while others who started implementing things earlier got better results. Or where just plain lucky.

We looked (7 years ago) if a school was consistence in their results. But a lot better is seeing the school and asking questions.

DD's school is always above the borough's average and rated good after a "requires improvment" 4 years ago. Some of her friends go to a - currently - outstanding school who scrapped along the bottom of the list in the last 2-3 years.

It is not always the result that counts.

IMO you dont need to look into the SATs in any great detail (or Ofsted report for that matter). You know your child and the 'feel' of a school that she would do well in. Go and visit the schools, park outside and watch children/parents, ask for personal experiences from parents. And then judge if its right for your child.

OP you ave so naive, I hope you see your post in ten years time and realise that it is a bit silly.

Just go and visit the schools, see which one is a best fit for your child.

If you want to give the results more than a passing glance, then you need to dig into why they are as they are (taking into account the caveat that last year was the first of ”new” SATS.)
There are way too many factors that can influence results including

• High mobility
• High number of FSM children or children with SEN
• Small cohort
• Very variable cohorts
• School turns Year 6 into a SATS factory
• KS1 results may be under or over stated.

DD’s school obtained 30% of DC meeting expectations last year, and yet Ofsted has just given it a “Good” rating overall. That basically tells you nothing – you need to visit the school and ask questions.

Don't overanalyse the results from one cohort. Remember that children are not on a production line - results can be affected by things as diverse as an ill parent or a house move. Children join schools at inopportune times for tests, sometimes, too. Remember too that last year was the first year this new system for measuring progress was put in place. It's actually so deeply flawed that the leader of one of the headteachers' unions called for the results not to be published, precisely because interested and concerned parents will think it matters more than it does. Go and visit the school, speak to the staff, speak to the pupils.

I agree, just go and visit.

Do you live near to both schools you are comparing? Having just been through the state primary school application process it isn't really a choice, if you live near enough, then you get in. If you don't you wont!

Agree, visit, and, if you like, ask questions about progress and achievement. One school may teach to tests and another may say they try to provide a rounded curriculum but don't teach to tests so much.

Decide where you think your child will be happiest and where your priorities lie, and choose accordingly.

I completely agree with all of the above. In my opinion SATs are not worth anything when choosing a school. And to some extent Ofsted is just as worthless. They base their judgements on things that make not one difference to whether your children develop a love for learning and are happy.

Primary years are long. It can change everything over the years.
When we applied for my ds's school, it was best out of 4 in the area for sats. We chose it because it was closest. Now the school is bottom for last year's results. But the school itself is good, and ds is happy. That's what really matters.

Remember too that in a small school each child counts for a larger percentage than in a bigger school. In a three/four form entry you might get a clearer picture than in a one form entry where each child contributes over 3%.

What they all said ^

Look at Ofsted and SATs, but first and foremost visit the school. Is it happy, is there a buzz, are they teaching phonics well, is there a variety of work on display (not just from the more able kids).

Go and read the y6 SATs threads on this board and see how some schools get their great results. Do you want this for your precious DC?

Visit the schools and see which one you like. Also be realistic about which ones you are likely to get into, especially in London.

I agree that you should just visit and see what the actual atmosphere in the school is like, how happy the children are and what the staff are like. My DC go to an outstanding school with really good SATS results and I am thinking of moving DD as she is really not happy there due to lack of support for her dyslexia and social problems. On paper the school is amazing, but unless you are academic, sporty and popular it's not actually so great.

Thank you all - it is great to hear all of these views. We are planning to move to the area we want to live but we should try to be in the catchment area of our preferred school. That is why I am trying to figure out which school I should choose. Unfortunately you cannot visit most of them well in advance - also by the time we apply things might change and the catchment area too . It is a bit of a lottery really but if we are choosing one catchment area to buy I am trying to understand which one I should go for.

I want a school that gives a love for learning - happy environment. the one we are looking at is Ofsted outstanding rated but a very big school (720 in total . 90 pupils each year and some 120) (not CoE which is our preferred choice). From pictures it looks like a happy place but we will not be able to see it until late September.

Is it true that if you child is able and happy with a bit of tutoring he would have similar chance to get in to one of top state secondaries or independent if you have a choice to those coming from Prep schools?

schooling is very new to me and I am not from this country (husband is) therefore I am trying to understand what works. I hope to laugh at my post in 10 years time but I will feel good that I had a lot of support and people who helped me to go through this thought process. thank you all.

If you are thinking about state secondary, I think you should think about catchment for it rather than primary, imo. It never crossed my mind when ds was small, but now it's becoming a huge problem.
Primary work is easy to supplement either by tutor or yourself if the school wasn't great. But like my ds' case, if choice of secondary is limited because of where we live, it's difficult to counter that, unless you are planning to move again.

OP, what I would do is to read all the reports for that area. Like in our city, close to where I live, there are 5 primary school, after reading throught the reports, I will have some knowledge of the school, the background of the children. For the SAT score, the 2 schools close to us have similar family background, I think the ability of the children should be similar, but school A has better above average, but very low high achivers, school B has less above average rate, but higher high achivers rate. This does reflect the education in the school, as I have children studied in both school. School B has better programme for talented children, School A doesn't pay much attention to high performing children at all. But both school are fine.

Of course, in the end , you need to visit the school, I found it's important to look at the headteacher and the teachers, you do have a feel of if they love the children. For a primary school, the most important is the school is well diciplined but also has a relaxed loving feeling.

would you consider above 10 and above % high achievers is a good number?

What I've now realised (since looking at and applying for primary places last year)

Is if you live in a town (like me) where places are hard to come by, then really you only need to bother looking at your two closest schools.

We looked at 6. Really it was a waste of time and energy, as 3 of them we really had no hope of DD ever getting a place.

So before you start any deeper research look at the home-school distances for the schools in your area - if you're out of them then rule them out of your comparisons.

Where we live it's basically your closest school, or an undersubscribed (bad) one that you have the chance of getting in to.

OP - ability and tutoring etc are not relevant to which state secondary school a child will get into unless you are in a county which has grammar schools. State comprehensives (even the best ones) are non-selective.

I'd look at the Ofsted report only to check there is nothing glaringly bad about the school. Other than that, you need to base your decision on your impressions when you visit, not on data and test scores. I've taught in so-called outstanding schools that I would totally have rejected for my own child. For state primaries and secondaries your likelihood of getting a place is largely down to proximity and the popularity of the school.

Eolian I suspect that that the Richmond in the OP's post is the London Borough which is a grammar area, rather than the North Yorkshire one which I don't think is.

I can't imagine any reason not to just go to your most local one in Richmond upon Thames, I can't imagine there's much difference either in the schools or intakes...

we are moving to the area. that is why I am looking at three schools in that area to decide which catchment area I should buy a house .

regarding destinations - I am trying to understand whether the chances of getting into private primary or grammar schools is very low if you choose state and/or whether these results would matter to have a better chance.

Hi teacher here,
You can visit the schools even if they don't have open evenings/days. Just email/call and explain your reasons for wanting a visit. No decent school would refuse a prospective parent.

I don't know about entry into private schools but grammar is all about passing a test and shouldn't take into account your child's background. That's the theory anyway.

Which school is it? I'm from Richmond and know most of them. Loads go to private/grammar secondaries from state primaries, many with scholarships. Tutoring abounds. Many move their DC to private preps to increase chance of getting into private secondaries (which isn't necessary in my opinion if you are aiming for a school that is suitable for your DC). The state schools in Richmond are pretty good excellent.

we are looking for Teddington ones - Collis cannot do visit as they are doing rounds with september intake . we will be on the next year . fair enough . I am a bit impatient as want to start the house hunt . I am checking with other schools for a visit too .