Being taught out of year (in Scotland): any experience?

[Arkadia]

In case it matters, we are in Scotland, so P2 is pretty much equivalent to Y1 and so on. Have already tried Scotsnet, but didn't get much joy.

To make a long story short, my DD2 next year will find herself to have to be taught out of year. She will be in P2 but she will have P3+ stuff in all subjects (She will have already done P2 because she is in a P1/2 composite class this year), except stuff that is done by the class as a whole.

At the beginning of next year, the HT informed me, a personalised plan will be agreed and in theory everything is going to be hunky-dory, but in practice how will it work? Has anyone got first hand experience they might want to share? I can already see the teachers trying to avoid that class like the plague...

PS
Just to get it out of the way, skipping a year is NOT an option, so let's not get bogged down discussing that.

PPS

Someone has passed me the "mastery" (or whatever they are called) expectations or years 1-2-3 and my jaw dropped.
I mean, the Curriculum for Excellence is so full of... fluff that it is hard to believe!!
I am just surprised that you don't have scores of children rushing ahead academically. I mean, in the first three years of school (which is as far as I go) they really do SOD ALL!!

I am a teacher in Scotland but have not heard of this as an official thing. However I have often (nearly every year) taught children who are working at a different level in some subjects. At my school we don't talk about children as working at a different year group but as where they are working within the curriculum so in my current P6 class I have children working from "end of Early" to "beginning of Third" level in some areas. When doing whole class work we all do pretty much the same but I will take into account their literacy and numeracy levels to ensure they can access material/ are sufficiently challenged. As you go up the school the spread of ability gets wider and differentiation is always necessary although I would have seen it as your child "working in the middle of first level" as opposed to at P3 level.

I imagine that your child will work with the rest of the class for most work but get extension material in literacy and numeracy or work with a different textbook. If you're lucky and staffing allows they might receive Additional Support for Learning in these areas. Rather than wonder what it means it would be best for you to ask the school/teacher directly so they can explain.

The curriculum is rather "fluffy"; the idea being that teachers can have greater flexibility to adjust to children's needs. However the need for more detail in what they actually need to learn has led to "benchmarks" being created. I would see the Experiences and Outcomes more as a minimum than all that they do.

jenny what levels are you referring to? I am unfamiliar with the terminology.

I know I should have asked more questions when I talked with the HT (and we will be meeting again, so I will have another chance), but she did say that given this arrangement she would be working ... alone, which is the bit that in a way worries me, but I cannot think of an alternative.
For example, at the moment she is taken out of her class to do maths with the P2s and reading and "vocabulary enrichment" with another P2 girl who is herself ahead of the rest of the class.

Re: "fluffiness", I did have a look at the government website, but I just couldn't follow it. It seemed just full of jargon, fluff and little more (for wont of a better word...), while I can relate to the maths docs linked as I can follow what they are saying and I can understand them.

I assumed she was taking out from her class and do work with year above for certain subject or something.
If she is still in same class but have differentiated work specially designed for her, I think most of school/teacher does that without specific IEP provided. I thought it was a norm. Though I doubt they all do it efficiently.

The curriculum is organised into "levels" -Early is for 3 year olds to end of P1, First Level is expected to be achieved by end of P4, Second Level is expected to be achieved by end of P7. Third Level is after that (S1-S3).

As that is very broad, local authorities (at least the two I have worked in) divide these into "sub-level" which are called different things depending on the authority: "developing, consolidating, secure" and "beginning middle and end" are the ones I have come across. These should then roughly fit the different year groups but there are always children who are outwith their year group's expectations.

Seems a bit odd that she would be working alone but I suppose that depends on how closely they work to a scheme -I tend to give my whole class the same sort of stuff e.g. addition and talk about the basic principles involved but some of the class will be using 2 digits, some 5, some decimals or negative numbers and they will have different problems to solve using this. Makes it easier to extend work for a child who is generally lower ability but shows a good grasp of one particular concept. A few children do effectively work alone as there's no one else working at their level but they are still sitting with others and I try to tie it in together with the rest of the class' work so it doesn't really stand out -apart from having to mark them separately.

I would say that it's good the school are clearly recognising her needs as the needs of more able children can often be overlooked.

There is an awful lot of jargon in education (and probably other professions) and it changes by region too -I had a whole new load of acronyms to learn when I moved a few miles into a different area! If you want anything explained or translated then I'm happy to try to help.

Thanks Jenny. That classification (very reminiscent of Ks1-2-3) is news to me. I wonder what kids are supposed to have achieved by the end of "level 1" Given the level of fluff I see at my school, I would expect... not very much :)

irvine, it has been rather in/efficient this year as well, at least in parts. The good thing of this year is that being in a P1/2 composite class she could do stuff with (some of the) P2s, while next year that will not be possible. I suppose that if she does get a personalized plan we can try and get away from the fluff. I suppose that time will tell...

In general (and I think this is a problem at MY school at least in the P1-3 years) is that differentiation is hard to spot. OK, some kids read easier/more difficult books, and kids with some kind of learning difficulties (that's something I surmise... I know nothing for sure) get treated differently, but that's it. AFAIK there is no differentiation at all in "maths" or literacy in general (obviously every child will write at their own level). Time will tell I suppose...

Can I clarify? Is she the correct age for p2? In which case, differentiating for an able child should be within the remit of the class teacher. If she is p3 age but in a mainly p2 class because of numbers, that is a lot more complicated!

Sounds like she will be P2 age but doing P3 level work. My ds has been getting extension maths work since early primary years and is in P6 now. The school is ordering in New resources for him for next year as he is doing P7 work now and they need something for him to do next year in P7. He works mainly in the class although when there were spare teachers in previous years he did some 1-1 work with them.

Tana, correct age, although I don't see why that should make things easier (or more complicated in case the age was not "correct").

Hi, I am a high school teacher but with DDs in primary. The whole set up sounds very strange to me and out dated. In my DDs school every aspect of the work is differentiated. For example there are kids who can barely read with some who are reading Harry Potter. They are in different groupings for each subject. With teacher or support for learning teachers taking out children or small groups. Support for learning teachers work with a range of pupils not just those at the lower or higher end of the spectrum in one area. With the CfE stuff it's more skills based than knowledge so in history for example you could have several P3 classes covering different topics but learning the same skills - experiences and outcomes. I wouldn't be very happy with any pupil learning alone as so much of primary education is about learning to work with others

kaffiene, what on earth means "experiences and outcomes? Now and again the school comes out with that expression, but never really bothered to explain it.

Because (in England at any rate!), teachers are expected to differentiate for ability, and itnis totally normal to have some children working well ahead of average, and some well below; a good teacher should do a good job of this. If she was out of age grouping there could be social and emotional consequences which is harder (feeling left out or left behind). But I've taught year 3 with children confidently reading the Hobbit, and others who don't yet know all their phonic sounds- a wide range is very normal.

"Experiences and Outcomes", or Es and Os if you're in the know, are the bits which make up the curriculum.

For example: "I can manage money, compare costs from different retailers, and determine what I can afford to buy. MNU 2-09a" The code on the end means it's second level maths.

In some schools it is considered good practice to put these on displays and in newsletters etc.

I think you wouldn't know if it works out or not until it happens, tbh.
Just keep an close eye on what's happening.
Hope it works out for your dd. Good luck.

Thanks Jenny. Still, the English doc seems to me much more practical and understandable (to me at least as I can relate to it).

Irvine, very true. Let's see who the new teacher is going to be (we should be told in the next few days, assuming they manage to recruit someone...).

Agree with Jenny from Scotland x

How is everything, Arkadia? Meeting gone well?

Nothing to report as yet. Meeting No 1 was a few days ago. The relevant one will be the next one, in Aug.