primary school appeal - paperwork says head teacher doesn't want my child!

[somewherebecomingrain]

We went to see the school we want our son to go to for year 4 next sept. His sister has just got into reception for next sept so we are appealing on that basis (we also live .49 of a mile away, compared to 4 miles from the school he is actually attending but know we can't appeal purely on that basis).

The teacher who showed us round said twice they were very happy to have him and were raising no objecting themselves. But the paperwork has come through saying the county council thinks it will prejudice the education of the other pupils and this view is shared by the headteacher and governing body.

We are very disappointed and can't understand this. I was open about my son's difficulties - he hasn't got a statement but he has been very stressed by moving house and has a learning mentor at the school he's currently at - I told them that when they were showing us around. Have I fucked it all up for him?

Any advice?

There will be others far better at advising on this but I think the prejudice means that they don't want to go over 30 not that they specifically don't want your child because of something about him.

but they've gone over 30 in other classes....

ps thank you gu24mum

No problem and I"m sure one of the experts here will be able to answer you better than I can. My understanding fwiw is that schools run the prejudice argument but may have lost it which could be why they are over 30 in some classes. I may of course be talking rubbish in which case apologies!

That is a standard phrase, it's nothing personal. Do you know why they have gone over 30 in other reception classes, they may be excepted reasons?

Have you looked at the allocations criteria and has it been applied correctly?

bombardier thank you very much for respondong.

do you mean it's a standard phrase that goes in all these papers? And if they said to us face to face they weren't against having another child they meant it?

We are applying for year 4 - they haven't gone over 30 in reception. they have 59 (two form class) in year 1, 61 in year 2 and 61 in the current year 3 (which would be the year he would join next sept).

This is nailbiting - good because they've obv gone over 30 in other classes, but bad because they're clearly above capacity already.

I'm not sure what the allocation criteria is. It seems correct that they refused him a place in year 3 cause it's key stage 2 and they're supposed to keep it at 30 in a class. Although they have actually gone over that.

The 30 limit doesn't apply for year 4, how many have they got in each class in the current year 3? Maybe they are already overcrowded? It is unlikely to be anything specific to your DS.

31 in one class and 30 in the other...

x-posted

^ yes, no 30 limit for year 4.

I'd ask for clarification in writing of what she meant.

There are only very limited grounds on which a place can be refused because of behaviour, and if that applied you would know about it. This phrasing is standard in place refusal to say that the appeal is about resource limitation and that there is greater harm (prejudice) to the children already at the school by admitting one more pupil, in this case your DS, than there is to the child denied a place (in this case your DS) by excluding him.

Be aware that the paperwork may well say 'and the headteacher and governors agree....' but there are many occasions when the appeal day comes and the panel say 'So tell us, Mr/Mrs Head Teacher, what is it about your school that makes having an extra child so troublesome? Is the class space particularly restricted, or are the corridors particularly narrow?' Then the Head Teacher gushes 'Oh goodness no, the classroom is beautifully spacious and we've just added an extra static unit for drama so it really adds to the space the children can use. The corridors are actually wider than in most schools and we are lucky enough to have the hall and a smaller room for lunches. Ideally, we'd like to increase our PAN by about 10 children!' At that point the LA representative normally has their head in their hands by that point

But in contrast, also be aware that many schools are pushed for space and older schools can seem on paper to have more room than in practice. For example, a square footage/meterage may imply a class size of 30, but if the room is L-shaped or only has 3 usable walls due to windows or doors, then a portion of the class may be rendered unusable for whole class teaching, or they may only be able to fit 22 workstations in, so the nominal room size may be reduced to 22 children.

Apologies, I confused the children. It's more positive that it isn't an infant class size appeal.

Yes, it's a standard phrase they use on their appeal statement. Each school is likely to have a template, they just change the details for the individual child/ their class size etc. I expect the teacher showing you round didn't have any objections, but doesn't have responsibility for planning and budgets!

You can ask the school why they have 31 in one class. It may be because of twins, or if the child was/ is a looked after child.

It would be helpful if you could get medical evidence to support your child's needs.

As a panel member I would not allow your appeal unless you identified an anomaly in the way the admissions policy had been applied. Your son's needs do not appear sufficiently serious that they would outweigh the impact of an additional child on the other children. However I take a very strict view on procedure, some panel members can be swayed on an emotional level and you may be luck out and get them rather than someone like me!

(Personally I hope you get a good result though!)

They are just full, that's all.
The 31st will likely have got in through appeal themselves.
On what grounds are you appealing, this is the important thing?

As others have said, don't take this personally. They have to put up a case to refuse admission otherwise there would be no need for the appeal hearing. The case they have put up is absolutely standard.

As this is for a Y4 place you can win by showing that your child will be disadvantaged if he doesn't go to this school. You don't have to show that there has been a mistake in processing the application which has deprived him of a place. Great if you can as that would be a very strong appeal but don't worry if you can't.

You need a stronger case than his sister being at this school. That is unlikely to win unless you have independent evidence from a medical professional or similar saying that he needs to be at the same school as his sister. You need to take a good look at the things on offer at this school, including extra-curricular activities. See what they have that is not available at his current school. If you can show that any of this is particularly relevant to your son that would help your case. For example, if your son is musically talented and this school has additional musical activities that would be worth mentioning.

Of course, if the school turn up at the appeal and say that they would be happy to take your son you should win regardless of the strength of your case. But I would recommend making sure your case is as strong as you can make it.

Thanks again for your replies bombardier and prh47bridge really enormously helpful. Thanks everyone for your responses.

gillybeanz the grounds on which we are appealing is that his sister is going to the school, it's his local school, and there's no statutory reason why they can't take him.

We are having him assessed for some level of special needs around ADHD - he is very easily distracted and has had some difficulty keeping up with schoolwork. He's actually caught up recently but I think going to his local school will help him with this aspect. DH thinks all this assessment will put the school off whereas you seem to be advising me it will help.

One thing DH is emphasising and I think he's right is that the council here did advise us our strongest suit was our daughter going to the school and that would be pretty effective. So maybe where we are the council puts more stock on that.

We are thinking hard about our appeal - I'm not sure whether to go in strongly on the fact that he has distraction problems or just go on other things, like he loves drama and reading and the new school would have more literary and drama activities.

sorry DH shouting at me to clean up a bathroom accident ----

I appealed to our catchment for a year four place after moving house. The LA did not have any spaces in any schools in year four and my dd was without any place at all for three months.

She did get a place but it was an uphill slog. Their side of the appeal was all about fire exits and square footage. Although the school was very welcoming when dd started she didn't have a peg or a tray as there were only 30.

lougle and savoycabbage thanks for your comments.

Lougle I hope and pray the school will stand by what they said - they were very positive about DS joining them when we visited them. Then the LA will hopefully be stuffed! It was actually the LA who said a sister starting in reception was strong grounds for appeal.

Savoy I'm glad your daughter got the place in the end. Was she initially offered a place in a school outside your catchment?

Thanks for all your comments. We are calming down a bit now we realise that phrase is a cut and paste. We thought we had given such a bad impression of our DS on our visit to the school that they'd closed ranks!

The other thing that is interesting is that the school we are appealing for is huge - much bigger in terms of square foot than the school of equal size that DS is currently at.

there were no L-shaped rooms.

It was actually the LA who said a sister starting in reception was strong grounds for appeal

That is a surprising thing for them to say and makes me wonder if the person who said it knows how appeals work. Normally having a sibling at the school is a very weak case for appeal.

The Admission Appeals Code is clear that the appeal panel has to decide if the disadvantage to your son from not attending this school outweighs the disadvantage to the school from having to cope with another child. Having your children at different schools may cause issues with transport and childcare but appeal panels are told that they cannot give any weight to this unless there are special circumstances (e.g. a child with mobility issues). It may be less convenient for you if your children are at different schools but that does not constitute a disadvantage for your son.

There may be some appeal panels that think siblings should be together and award places on that basis but I haven't come across them. For most panels you would only win on that basis if the school was unable to show that there would be any disadvantage to the school from admitting another child.

If the school indicate to the panel that they would be happy to take your child it may be that none of this matters. But I would still strongly recommend strengthening your case as I outlined in my last post. That would help the panel by giving them a positive reason to admit your son.

No she had no place at all anywhere.

They would send me a letter with a list of year four places within three miles, I would apply and get told there were no places. So they would send me a list for within six miles. I'd phone the schools. Some would say there was no places, some would say there were and I'd apply to those. Then she still didn't get a place. On and on this went! With the distances expanding. I appealed for the catchment school on the grounds that it was the catchment school.

It seems as if we are not in a dissimilar position to savoycabbage but with a sister thrown in.

So savoy they said yes at your first appeal? or was there another stage beyond the appeal?

From what you say ph47bridge it seems as if we should really emphasise the fact that hes being assessed for attention deficit as clearly having everything close by is very advantageous if you are clinically unfocused.... ?