Lots of questions about out of catchment admissions

[HiDBandSIL]

PFB DS starts primary school next year (2018). Our catchment school has a bad reputation and really awful results and I'd like DS to go somewhere else. I'm trying to work out which out of catchment schools to apply to but it's a complicated picture. Can you help by answering some questions?

1. There's a new primary school opening nearby which we won't be within catchment for. Are new schools popular with parents? Are they generally a good/bad idea? It's a single form entry and he would be the very first year. They don't even having planning permission yet! We can apply.

1. I've looked at the admissions statistics for the last few years and there isn't any one school locally that we'd have got into every year (except the catchment school). They're all pretty full. With only three preferences, how do I work out which ones to apply to?

1. Is there any point at all in putting down either of the two top performing and most popular (and oversubscribed) schools? I think we'd have got in one year in the last six when there was a bulge class. The other is our closest school we're not in catchment. Is there any way of knowing whether there'll be a bulge class?

1. If there's an admission number of 15 or less presumably it will be a class of mixed ages. I would have thought that wouldn't be a good idea but some of those schools get good results. Is there a consensus on the ideal class composition? At the other end of the spectrum, two schools are 3FE. That seems so huge.

1. Is it a complete nightmare to have siblings in different schools? I don't know whether to choose an even less popular school to try to get a place for DS2 there too.

Thank you for any advice.

Definitely planning to visit but I'm a bit ahead of myself here as I understand it because school open day type things are done in the autumn.

From the comments, I am thinking I need to take a good look at the catchment school and not write it off solely on reputation and results.

our local schools would let you visit before the open days, just ring up and have a chat to see if you can pop in.

If something like the not stretching kids comment is made in an ofsted it's normally picked up on and dealt with not ignored. At primary engaged parents make a huge difference, the support work you do at home and on days out etc makes a big difference.

Can't help you with many of your questions but I have children in a small outstanding school with mixed year classes and i wouldn't choose it again. They are doing okay but are both being taught in mixed years (y1/2 and y3/4) of 33 and 34 pupils with one teacher. Several kids have got in on appeal so excepted from the normal ratios. The classes are very squashed and the teachers are definitely overstretched.

Distance is measured in a straight line using the NLPG.

That's a really good point "safetocross" . I struggle to interpret the admission statistics on that point. There were no children on the waiting list in either 2015 or 2016. Last year there were 12 "non-preference offers" last year and 19 in 2012 which must mean there was space in both years but in 2013 - 2015 they didn't make any non-preference offers.

I'm also feeling more optimistic now there seems to be a chance of getting into school #1 - my top choice - at juniors. Unfortunately I've only got the stats for last year so I'm not sure how that would play out in practice.

Also keep meaning to say that I'm a big believer in getting a feel for a place. I just feel that our options are so limited and choices so few that I have to go for the schools that we have some hope of getting in to.

Also keep meaning to say that if we don't get into any of these, the worst case scenario is a school that looks very similar to number #9 on paper, always has space and is about a 15 minute drive. I'd really like to be able to walk but that's looking fairly unlikely (#9 is a 30 minute walk).

That's interesting to know 3boys . I am leaning away from schools #4 and #10 because of the mixed years classes. The primary I went to only had 4 children in my year group by the time I left. I was very happy there but it wasn't great academically.

Thanks thatsnotmymummy . I'll start making some calls!

I would suggest HiDB that 13% for expected is extremely low and it would worry me. The Government's data will tell you what progress the children make at the school and that might be ok, but I would have my doubts. Does the data rank them below average in every category?

Where a school has "expected" this low, it could indicate a lot of special needs children or PP children who are under-achieving. It would also mean that in a class of 30, only 4 will make it to the expected level and if your child is bright, they may have few children to work with. Ofsted says the brighter children are not challenged and this too accounts for poor results. I rather agree with you that it needs to improve but you will find it very hard to judge this by looking round. How will you know if children are being challenged and are making good progress? You might see well behaved children who appear busy, but that is just a snap shot and not sustained evidence of progress.

I would try for the schools that look better on paper after you have visited, of course. I would not touch a school with 13% because to get to even 50% would be a Herculean task and without many brighter children, it would be impossible..

I would not touch a school with 13% because to get to even 50% would be a Herculean task and without many brighter children, it would be impossible

It doesn't really matter if you would deign to touch it or not. What matters is that when the computer runs through the stats, the OP will more than likely be offered 2.

I go by feel, not by inspection reports or test results. School tests are testing one tiny dlfraction of a child's ability and development and I wholeheartedly oppose them.

Whilst the figures of 13% expected is very low, it was the first set of tests using that set of definitions. So whilst everything does indicate that this is a school that is struggling I would caution leaving final decisions till you see what the figures are like this year. You will have plenty of time as you have till mid January 2018 to apply.

Non-preference offers means that parents applied to other school but were unsuccessful with all their 3 preferences.They were therefore offered the school that had places available, that is school 2. What this shows is that parents are tending to opt for schools that they have little or no chance of getting into and simply reinforces the need to do as much home work as possible in visiting schools and making sensible decisions.
I do not agree with Safetocross about not putting down school 2. AS catchment it is the school you have the most likelyhood of getting a place allocated at. If you do not put i down and then it has improved in popularity or there is a baby boom locally, you might not even get a place at the catchment school and be allocated an even worse school 30 minutes drive away.

School can change. Don't write off school which isn't good now. Get a feel for school/HT/teachers, etc.

My ds' primary was most desired when we applied 5 years ago.(also closest.)
The school everybody avoided was RI, and a lot of parents went on a waiting list to come to our school.
Last year's results were totally opposite. Our school was below national average, and other was above average for everything, especially maths. A lot of parents must be kicking themselves for move to our school.

You never know what happens in few years.

HiDBandSIL- my dd starts 2018 too. I haven't started looking properly at options yet so can't really help but I wondered how do you find out about admissions in the last 5 years and your chances of getting in?

Are you sure that you won't get an extra choice for the new school? Near us, in the first year of new schools it has been possible to apply to them as well as the normal number.

Thank you for your comments. There's so much to think about here. I'm really glad I asked the question!

admission - thank you, that's really helpful. The volume of non-preference offers does make me think there are lots of people like me trying to avoid this school! I see your argument for choosing it as an insurance option (and I've read that on this board before - it's the golden rule!) but now I'm in this position I feel as though I would rather a third shot at getting in somewhere better than a guaranteed place at the struggling school. But I know there's a significant risk. I wish I had a more desirable safe bet. I'm thinking of 9 as being a safe-ish bet but that would have failed last year.

stealth - I've not seen any mention of that but I'll check because that would definitely help.

MrsSifB - on the local authority's website. They publish lots of data on admissions every year. To work out our chances of getting in I've looked at whether there was space and if not where we'd have fallen in the oversubscription criteria and whether we'd have ranked ahead of the last child admitted.

bojo - the school progress scores are "well below national average" in all subjects unfortunately. Thanks very much for your analysis.

About mixed year group classes. I went to a primary school with mixed classes (y1/2, y3/4, y5/6), and DD now goes to the same school but is only in reception so it doesn't yet affect her very much. The advantages which I found were having a wider range of playmates, including slightly older or younger, and more differentiation - although this might be done slightly differently in a small school. I certainly wouldn't rule out a school based just on mixed years.

Do you know what school people from your area are often allocated if they fail to get into any of their requested schools? I know people in my area who didn't put down their not very good catchment school only to be driving their children to a failing school 10-15 miles away.

So I know where you are as I recognise all those numbers (applied this year and waiting to hear!) Incidentally we are in catchment for school 1 (although wouldn't have got in last year) and it's our second choice, first choice is school 9, third is school 8. The junior school for 1 is less well regarded than the infants. Neither have much outside space although they are nice. The new school should be good given the sponsors. I know many parents who dismissed school 2 and then saw it and loved it. Apparently the facilities are amazing. Go and see. Would say that there really is no chance of school 1 or 11 unless you are both in catchment and close. The schools here are good, don't panic!

DD's school stats are not far off the ones you mention for your catchment school. They were really left wanting by the change in the curriculum. The good news is it's really shaken up the school and they have put a huge number of measures in place to improve. If I was looking fora Reception place now, I'd find this a really positive point for a school (more so than a school getting good results but coasting). One reason why you need to actually go and see the school and talk to the head.

Oh my goodness bruce . I hadn't considered there would be someone from here on here! Very interested to hear your comments and that you have school 9 as first preference. Thank you and good luck!

wyf - thank you for your comments. It's good to hear the positives of mixed age classes. It seems as though a good number end up at our catchment school if they fail to get in anywhere else.

And good to hear too red. It will be interesting to see this year's results. I will definitely visit.

Hehe. Just glad you didn't think what a saddo I was for recognising those numbers! I was really surprised I didn't love school 1, but it depends on your child. I believe (from those I know that chose it this year) that your catchment school had a lot of investment and has lots of value adding extras as it gets a lot of pupil premium compared to others locally. But I understand your concerns. Only you can know though, so go see it with an open mind. Also, school 5 is expanding to 3fe so you may have a better chance there in the next year if that's easier to get to. I was surprised how much I liked 9 (most people I know felt the same, it's seen as an "insurance" for 1 and 11 folks I think.) Btw the junior school is osfted good, and actually joined to the infants, the junior school for no1 is totally separate (and 0.3miles away).

I do appreciate that looking round a school is vital but prospective parents really cannot tell whether a school has put in place effective measures to improve and whether these are making any difference. Unless they show you their performance and progress data you really will not know if the school is improving or not. If there are lots of PP and SEN children they will struggle to get good progress and not being prepared for the new curriculum is a Management failure - at any school. It does not excuse these figures. This score is so low and a very low progress score as well really indicates this school has a long way to go to be popular and is not providing a very good education at the moment. It might take years to get on track.

Look behind the figures. How did they get them? Did they hot house the children eg everything but literacy, spag and numeracy cancelled, enforced pre school afterschool lunch revision classes? Unless you know this you can't make a decision based on sats results. My dd1 and a friends school have the same results. Friends school cancelled all non 'exam' work and enforced preschool classes as well from January . Dd1 school had the whole range of subjects art, music etc, did school assemblies and a museum trip. The only thing was each child spent a half term small group work one hour a week doing maths or English.
I know which I prefer for my child at 10.

I also advice looking at the summer fair and getting an informal feel of the school. How do the parents support the school? Are there any staff helping out?

Please go and look at your catchment school as you may well end up there. Getting 'good' SATs results is certainly a poor indicator on its own of a school as a whole. It's a bit like looking at the front door of a house and deciding you don't like the bathroom inside. It's just one strand of information and as a person who goes into lots of different schools for my job, I would say that there is no substitute for going to a school and looking around and talking to people (teachers, head and children) there.

Interesting that your catchment school is now oversubscribed. Clearly getting a better reputation. You'd have got into the other one this year though, we did (hooray!)