Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Original poster

Has anyone removed their child from collective worship?

56 replies

playmobilpeacock · 20/03/2017 18:35

I'm considering removing my child from collective worship after they came home and declared that 'god is definitely real, they tell us every week.'

Once a week there is a special assembly run by the local (evangelical) church and it's this assembly that I want them removing from.

I'm looking to hear the experience of anyone who has taken this step.

OP posts:
MissGoggins · 21/03/2017 20:00

A vicar is not going to say some people believe Jesus died for them is he? As he knows that he did!

Why can a vicar not state that he believes this, instead of selling it as fact?

artiface · 21/03/2017 21:00

I can understand why all main religions are taught in schools in a lesson format, but surely the whole concept of 'faith schools' should be questioned? If a family wants to teach their child their own faith surely the place for that is home - not a school.

spanieleyes · 21/03/2017 21:11

I don't know why there is quite so much angst about it. You are entitled to withdraw your child from Collective worship so, if you want to-do so! Schools manage fine to cope with everyone from atheists/agnostics/Plymouth Brethren/ Hindus/ Muslims and every faith or non faith group in between. So withdrawal is no big deal!

meditrina · 21/03/2017 21:18

"the whole concept of 'faith schools' should be questioned?"

Do bear in mind that faith schools predate the establishing of any state schooling in UK and are perhaps more accurately described as church/faith schools currently acting in co-ooeration with the state (ie they are not schools allowed particular concessions by the state).

I don't think the state could afford to replace them tbh.

SorrelSoup · 21/03/2017 21:21

I just think it's shitty of any non church primary school to represent any religion as fact. Kids in non faith schools should be taught about all beliefs; not have one belief taught as fact. I've got an eye on my dc's school currently.

jamdonut · 21/03/2017 21:24

I totally get where you are coming from, OP.
I have always been of the opinion that children should learn about religion, but make up their own minds when they are old enough.
As a TA it has made me uncomfortable on church visits when children have been presented with 'facts' about God and I can remember a prayer being said which said something along the lines of "we are all unworthy and full of wickedness" ! However, that vicar has now moved on and the new one is amazing and makes Bible stories sound interesting without preaching .
Although I sit in on assemblies, I do not repeat prayers or say amen, though I am respectful (there are other member of staff who do the same) .I sing hymns, because I like singing!

I always told my own children that some people believe in God and that they should respect that, but that they could make their own minds up about what to believe. Both my sons are atheist, but my daughter has a vague Christian belief...that's her choice.
This is also the reason I didn't want them christened ( much to my mother and grandmother's' disgust!)...Why saddle them with something that they may not want when they can make their own informed choices?

I don't know of anyone who has removed their child from assembly for religious reasons, though!

meditrina · 21/03/2017 21:27

"Kids in non faith schools should be taught about all beliefs"

In RE, they will be. Ditto in faith schools.

Collective worship is a whole different can of worms. And the style of assembly very much comes down to the ethos of the schoolmand. The leadership of the head.

If you do not like it, you can try to move your DC to a school you do approve of (though I realise that's easier said than done in many areas; or you exercise the right to opt out.

GraceGrape · 21/03/2017 21:32

The fact is though, that church school or not, a daily, broadly- Christian act of collective worship is enshrined by law. We do not have the separation of church and state that they have in countries like France, for example. Most schools will sing the odd hymn or read a story about a value that could be considered to relate to Christianity. I imagine the majority of us who were educated in the UK attended schools where this was the norm. Maybe speak to the head if you feel that your DC's school is taking it to extremes.

SorrelSoup · 21/03/2017 21:35

I realise re is different. I didn't realise how often the local vicar "popped in" to our school. How Christianity was presented as a truth. I feel let down by the school. I thought they were open minded educators and trusted them.

SallyGinnamon · 21/03/2017 22:10

Which is exactly why I do not want delusional people teaching my child.

I agree. I'm considering withdrawing DD from PHSE. Not as easy as withdrawing from religion unfortunately.

When I worked in primary school there were plenty of DC who missed assemblies. Your DC wouldn't stand out.

QuackDuckQuack · 21/03/2017 22:50

The idea that 'it's ok to have this level of Christian indoctrination as long as it's a church school' is worth challenging. Whilst some church schools are fully subscribed by those of the faith, in many rural areas church primary schools are often the only school in a village and generally take all the children from the village. We ended up choosing which village to live in by excluding those with church schools from our list as we weren't comfortable with sending our children to a church school or excluding them from village life by taking them off to whichever non-church schools had space in another village.

AllPizzasGreatAndSmall · 22/03/2017 00:04

The fact is though, that church school or not, a daily, broadly- Christian act of collective worship is enshrined by law.

I'd be interested to know if any school has been punished for not adhering to this.
My school doesn't even have a daily assembly and when they do they have no religious element. We focus on values, which may correspond to many 'Christian' values, as well as presumably many other religions.
If any parent didn't want their child to take part in assemblies it wouldn't be a problem, as we often have children missing them for various reasons such as interventions or music lessons.

EdithWeston · 22/03/2017 07:04

If the values correspond to Christian values, whether labelled Christian or not, then that's adhering to the law.

It's jolly useful that the CofE is so woolly these days that just about anything will count.

TittyGolightly · 22/03/2017 07:11

I'd be interested to know if any school has been punished for not adhering to this.

Here in Wales it forms part of their inspection and they can be marked down for not holding collective worship.

We considered removing DC but it seems they've peppered the religion through the day (grace at lunchtime/prayer at end of school etc) so I'm working on changing that rather than making DC "different". So far they haven't sucked up any of the god is real bollocks though.

NoMoreAngstPls · 22/03/2017 07:13

I think some of the posters on this thread may not understand how religious some non faith schools are. Our primary school has an assembly once a week delivered by a local (ish) evangelical church, NOT our local parish church. Some of the things my DCs have come home saying are very evangelical imo.

Both my DCs teachers are v religious, and talk about the importanceof prayer in class. One is a born again Christian. This is a standard (non faith) school.

NoMoreAngstPls · 22/03/2017 07:20

Not the case in our school mrz. They also pray before lunch (for what we are about to receive. ....)

mrz · 22/03/2017 07:41

I don't think the reports claim it's all schools

Nicotina · 22/03/2017 07:43

I'd want to steer clear of evangelical anybody.

9toenails · 22/03/2017 11:38

I'm interested so many people say things like 'I'll let my children choose what to believe when they grow up', or 'They can decide for themselves ...'. I can't really choose what I believe, can I? Isn't there too close a connection between belief and truth?

It would be odd to say, 'I believe 6 times 9 is 53, but it's actually 54', no? That seems to be because to believe something is just to believe it's true.

What I always wanted for my children, when they grew up (as they did, eventually - all middle-aged now), was that they discover as much of the truth about the world, ethics, morality and so on, and then, of course, to believe what's true.

It wouldn't have helped (turning to OP's question) to have had them taught religion, of any sort. (It's true I used to read them bible stories - plagues of Egypt a particular favourite ('not the frogs, aargh! ... boils, eeurgh!') - but alongside other fairy stories.)

We were lucky enough to live somewhere RE wasn't at all compulsory (though it was available, different types, for people who wanted it for their children). And ime (contrary to those who post to says it's a 'good thing' to 'learn about different religions' (satanism, anyone? zoroastrianism? ...), it does good rather than harm to grow up not listening to people who take religion seriously. My children, I'll claim, are decent, fulfilled people who take their moral and societal obligations with utmost seriousness; they are also committed and hard-working parents to their children. (I suppose I would say that, hmm. I think it true, though; I believe it.)

With a bit more context, OP (and this applies to some of my grandchildren too), I think you need to play it by ear in UK - some state schools seem appropriately cautious about the whole indoctrination thing, others simply try to convert their pupils (shocking? - yes). Weigh it up. If it goes too far, make a stand. It's important that children avoid the depredations of (some) RE practitioners and teachers.

IamFriedSpam · 22/03/2017 11:43

If the children don't mind being removed then do it. My only reservation would be if they were very self conscious about being singled out.

Rosehips · 22/03/2017 12:17

I removed my primary kids from religious assemblies, it was simple and straightforward, school were very happy to oblige and discussed what we would/wouldn't be happy with (basically we said no to anything where religion was presented as fact). Kids sit out the assemblies and colour/read/do special teacher helping jobs. Oldest didn't want to miss out on Christmas service one year so he went, decided he didn't like it so won't go again.All fine

Original poster
playmobilpeacock · 22/03/2017 12:28

That's good to hear Rosehips.

I think DC1 will probably quite like to be singled out Hmm, they are something of a drama llama.

I totally agree with everything you say 9toenails and I would like to challenge how the school deal with their assemblies but I think taking DC1 out for now is the best action.

Thank you all well almost all for your comments and thoughts. It's been really helpful.

OP posts:
spaghettithrower · 23/03/2017 17:20

I would have no qualms about removing them from that assembly. I don't think it is appropriate that any church is coming in and giving an assembly once a week. If it was a one off, or if it was a visit to a place of worship as part of RE it would be a different matter.

I have worked in several different schools and every school is by law supposed to provide a collective act of worship of a broadly Christian nature every day. Most of the schools I have worked at which were non-faith schools would brush over this with some kind of story about being kind to each other (no mention of God or Jesus) and a song along similar lines. One school had a very pushy deputy head who was a pillar of her CofE church and wanted a much more Christian assembly, talking about things like Holy Communion. Parents began to complain and she had to return to a more neutral approach although she complained bitterly.
I think some schools do have one or two staff in positions of power who are more evangelical in their approach to their faith and this is why so many parents on mumsnet have so many different experiences of what their child is experiencing in RE or assemblies.
I think parents should call out schools on things like this because it is completely inappropriate.
I am RC but completely disagree with faith schools and the act of collective worship. Good religious education classes where children learn about different faiths and none, as well as tolerance are important though.