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Primary education

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Question Time view on primary schools

44 replies

jacobibatoli · 19/02/2017 21:22

last QT a retired Maths secondary school teacher said that over her 37 years she had seen a steady decline in the grasp of basics from school kids coming from primary schools
they no longer knew their tables or could do fractions
this is a very big reason why secondary schools struggle if the kids that are delivered to them don't know the basics
my kids have gone through this stage and the primary school did not practise the times tables enough or have get a good enough grasp of fractions
I am not an educationalist/teacher just a despairing parent
I think primary schools are failing the kids who do not have a good grasp of the basics

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Letseatgrandma · 20/02/2017 16:43

the rigour is not there

Total rubbish.

Redlocks28 · 20/02/2017 16:49

a very big reason why secondary schools struggle if the kids that are delivered to them don't know the basics

I would say the same about primary schools! If children arrive and the parents haven't delivered them to school 'knowing the basics' then they will struggle too. We have children starting reception in nappies (I'm not counting any children with SEN), drinking from bottles, who can't put a jumper on, can't cut up a piece of food with a knife and fork, can't do up buttons, can't wipe their own bottom, can't sit still or enjoy listening to a story.

Many reception teachers are teaching all these things. What shall we do about that?

sirfredfredgeorge · 20/02/2017 19:48

Thanks kesstrel that makes a lot of sense, and again shows to me why most of my success in many subjects is down to my working memory.

irvineoneohone I agree being able to do rapid calculation is very, very helpful, but only in the sense that it doesn't distract from the concept - knowing how to calculate a volume or area is more important than actually calculating it. When we read Matilda when DD was 4, she answered the multiplication questions Matilda did, it took ages - but she knew the theory of repeated addition and had the working memory not to forget how many she'd added (with the help of fingers for counting up one of the factors). But the understanding of the concept of multiplication strikes me as what's important for applying that to later concepts.

jacobibatoli · 20/02/2017 20:38

MiaowTheCat
I am not after a teacher bash session
more are we (collective we) getting it right
I just agreed with the QT teacher
I don't see 30 kids from 30 different backgrounds/experiences and abilities that teachers do
I can only see it as a parent of my own kids and some of their friends
parents don't get it right all the time

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Graphista · 20/02/2017 20:47

That QT was in Glasgow, no SATs here in Scotland.

My daughter attended a Glasgow primary and I didn't recognise what that woman said at all. But all schools are different. There's regional variations, she also wasn't necessarily discussing a Glasgow primary.

My daughter was taught her times tables, by sequence initially then mixing it up as they got older. Parents were very much encouraged to reinforce this at home, we were signposted to games and songs.

Ditto with English, spelling and grammar, story construction rhymes etc.

I do think it's a shame this isn't happening in ALL schools especially as I know not all children will have engaged interested encouraging parents at home.

Graphista · 20/02/2017 20:49

Ps also fractions and weighing and measuring etc were taught well.

llhj · 20/02/2017 20:50

Well categorically your teacher friend is wrong. There hasn't been a decline in mathematical standards over the last 37 years, quite the opposite and all highly regarded studies point to this.

llhj · 20/02/2017 20:51

All children in a state funded primary school will be taught times tables.

jacobibatoli · 20/02/2017 20:57

thatdearoctopus

my kids have been through primary school and I don't think it was good enough in some areas tables and fractions as 2 examples, but in other areas very good indeed
I am not expounding the populist notion that "schools nowadays" aren't doing their job properly
(In fact I think that schools have far more to deal with now than years gone by)
I am expounding my own view based on my own experience which is very limited I grant you, but nevertheless as a parent who sits on the opposite side of the fence to you I should be entitled to express an opinion even if it doesnt line up with yours
and you should be able to accept that parents may have a different view to yours

we both want the same thing

In addition, although you clearly trump me with your experience, the QT teacher trumps you with her 37 years Smile

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jacobibatoli · 20/02/2017 21:08

Letseatgrandma
a lot of the maths homework is via computer (eg mymaths etc...) and the problem with that is that a lot of the knowledge disappears when the pc is turned off
all the mistakes are in the computer not in an exercise book where it is marked and you can see where you have gone wrong and where your re-work got it right
and maybe because the curriculum has been extended the time for each subject is reduced
maybe a teacher can confirm whether the time for each subject has been maintained and whether the numbers in the class have increased

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thatdearoctopus · 20/02/2017 21:12

I should be entitled to express an opinion even if it doesn't line up with yours

But I'm afraid I think your opinion counts for little when you have no evidence to back it up. The rigour is not there. Hmm Where is your evidence for this, for example?

mrz · 20/02/2017 21:18

TIMSS: International mathematics achievement
*
*
"From the first assessment in 1995 to the most recent in 2015, England's score increased by 12.8 per cent (from 484 to 546) for nine to 10 year-olds, with a 4 per cent improvement (from 498 to 518) for 13 to 14 year-olds."

jacobibatoli · 20/02/2017 21:36

thatdearoctopus
gosh your reply is quite rude whether you meant it or not
anyhow
I have all my exercise books from my school days (a long long time ago)
and the homeworks and number of examples that my kids do are certainly not as riguorous (in my opinion)
that is comparing like-for-like subject matter on various topics in algebra

granted this evidence is based on a very small sample size Smile

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jacobibatoli · 20/02/2017 21:38

mrz
if the standards are improving so much year on year why are we going through a grading change in England?

OP posts:
mrz · 21/02/2017 05:57

The rationale for the removal of levels
** Despite a wider set of original purposes, the pressure generated by the use of levels in the accountability system led to a curriculum driven by Attainment Targets, levels and sub-levels, rather than the programmes of study. Levels came to dominate all forms of assessment. Not only were they used for both statutory national curriculum tests and statutory reporting of teacher assessment, but they also came to be used too frequently for in-school assessment between key stages in order to monitor whether pupils were on track to achieve expected levels at the end of key stages.
Despite a wider set of original purposes, the pressure generated by the use of levels in the accountability system led to a curriculum driven by Attainment Targets, levels and sub-levels, rather than the programmes of study. Levels came to dominate all forms of assessment. Not only were they used for both statutory national curriculum tests and statutory reporting of teacher assessment, but they also came to be used too frequently for in-school assessment between key stages in order to monitor whether pupils were on track to achieve expected levels at the end of key stages.
The Commission believes that this has had a profoundly negative impact on teaching and learning. Alongside the Government’s changes to ways of reporting national curriculum test outcomes and statutory teacher assessment, the freedom for schools to develop their own approaches to in-school assessment means that the three forms of assessment – formative assessment, in-school summative assessment and nationally standardised summative assessment5 – can be appropriately tied to their different purposes. Overall this will better serve the needs of pupils and promote a higher quality of teaching, learning and assessment.
The problems with levels
Accuracy and consistency of assessment
Although levels were intended to be used to assess pupils against the whole programme of study, the results of almost any assessment were translated into a level or sublevel and used as a measure of overall attainment. This either required aggregating a wide variety of data into a single number, which did not represent pupil performance accurately, or meant that levels were being assigned to individual pieces of work, regardless of how much of the programme of study they covered.
Too often levels became viewed as thresholds and teaching became focused on getting pupils across the next threshold instead of ensuring they were secure in the knowledge and understanding defined in the programmes of study. In reality, the difference between pupils on either side of a boundary might have been very slight, while the difference between pupils within the same level might have been very different.
Progress became synonymous with moving on to the next level, but progress can involve developing deeper or wider understanding, not just moving on to work of greater difficulty. Sometimes progress is simply about consolidation.
Levels also used a ‘best fit’ model, which meant that a pupil could have serious gaps in their knowledge and understanding, but still be placed within the level. There were additional challenges in using the best fit model to appropriately assess pupils with uneven profiles of abilities, such as children with autism.
Although levels were intended to define common standards of attainment, the level descriptors were open to interpretation. Different teachers could make different judgements. Teachers receiving new pupils frequently disagreed with the levels those pupils had been given by previous teachers. Consequently, the information secondary schools received from primary schools was sometimes felt to be unreliable or unhelpful.
Too often levels have dominated lesson planning. Teachers planned lessons which would allow pupils to learn or demonstrate the requirements for specific levels. This encouraged teachers to design and use only classroom assessments that would report a level outcome. As a result, formative classroom assessment was not always being used as an integral part of effective teaching. Instead of using classroom assessments to identify strengths and gaps in pupils’ knowledge and understanding of the programmes of study, some teachers were simply tracking pupils’ progress towards target levels. The drive for progress across levels also led teachers to focus their attention disproportionately on pupils just below level boundaries.
In addition, levels were often the main focus of conversations with pupils and their parents or carers6. Pupils compared themselves to others and often labelled themselves according to the level they were at. This encouraged pupils to adopt a mind-set of fixed ability, which was particularly damaging where pupils saw themselves at a lower level. The disconnect between levels and the content of the national curriculum also meant that telling a parent his or her child was level 4b, did not provide meaningful information about what that child knew and understood or needed to know to progress. Levels were used to measure both end of phase achievement and lesson-by-lesson formative progress, but they had not been designed to fulfil the latter purpose, with the result that formative assessment was often distorted.

jacobibatoli · 21/02/2017 21:31

mrz
thank you for a such a comprehensive reply
I think I understand most of it and agree with most if it
I think I am glad I am not a teacher
standing on the fence between parents and government

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mrz · 23/02/2017 09:09

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/02/23/novels-youtube-stars-ruining-childrens-reading-agesexperts-warn/?WT.mcid=tmgshare_tww^
"The research, which surveyed the reading habits of over 800,000 children in the UK, found that children leave primary school with the correct reading age. However, by the time they sit GCSEs at age 16, their reading age is that of a 13-year-old. "

nat73 · 23/02/2017 14:56

I think that since the new curriculum was introduced some 2 years ago expectations are much higher and seem to be much closer to what you get in the private sector. Certainly for maths (I havent looked at the english) it is good progress.
It depends when your friend retired - the change will only be noticeable now.
A friend of mine who went to the local state school 20 years ago said the hippy teachers did not push them at all and she did not have to do any work really til A levels!!
So I do think there is good progress now.

Bluebird23 · 23/02/2017 19:01

I left a high achieving pushy Primary School in 1990 and was classed as bright. My daughter is in Y4 and attends an average attaining Primary School, without a doubt she is studying far more complex matters in all subjects than I did at the same age.
I suppose it will depend on the School and the ability of the child. Overall, I believe my Children are receiving a good solid education without feeling any pressure from their teacher's. I feel for parents who can't say the same.
The press bashing of our young and their hard working educators irritates me.

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