Teachers / parents: when do children start working with 4 digit numbers?

[Hindsight2020]

Roughly when is column addition and subtraction with 4 digit numbers started?

I know schools have some flexibility with timings for years 3/4 and 5/6, as long as they do teach the statutory topics. I also know that all children are expected to cover each topic at the same pace rather than there being huge differentiation as there was previously.

But roughly when and what issues might make it happen earlier or later?

"Are there any educational reasons to keep going over the same topic at the same level over two school years (through year 3 and year 4)?"
Yes to build fluency

It is still January. I'm sure the teacher will introduce four digits in the next to terms.

But as has been said several times number of digits doesn't equal difficulty. Even if hypothetically the teacher didn't do four digits this year your dc isn't going to be falling behind in year 5 when introduced to five digits.

I think it is worth thinking about primary Maths - as indeed the testing process does in Year 6 - as teaching and assessing a mixture of 'arithmetical fluency' and 'mathematical reasoning'.

To achieve the level of 'arithmetical fluency' required by Year 6, yes, children have to be quick and accurate at completing the standard methods for all 4 operations (as well as other arithmetical processes, including spotting when mental methods are appropriate) for whole numbers and decimals.

To be capable of the level of 'mathematical reasoning' required by Year 6, children do need to have a deep knowledge and understanding of what they are doing, over and above their ability to complete calculations.

Hence the type of 'incrasing challenge' type approaches that i listed in an earlier post - yes, children have to be capable of completing known algorithms at speed (hence continued practice of basic methods as a starting point) but also understand what is going on to the point where they can apply this knowledge to complete missing digit problems, one and two step problems in whole number and decimal contexts, balancing equations etc etc.

So for the IOP, if the only maths that your child is doing is 3 digit + 3 digit arithmetical fluency, then yes, that is an issue. But if they are being moved on from that arithmetical fluency to challenges of understanding, albeit still within 3 digit whole numbers and decimals, then it is almost a non-issue as if the understanding is there then adding extra digits is trivial.

So if I were to encounter in Y5 a child who really understood and had a deep grasp of calculating with 3 digits in context, and capable of answering all the types of problems that probe true understanding, moving them on to 5 or more digits from 3 would be a matter of moments - the first 10 minutes of the first lesson. I'd probably then spend a bit longer on the decimal version - so subtracting 1.9804 from 2000.6 - but tbh both are pretty trivial and quick if the understanding is there from working with numbers with fewer digits.

www.ncetm.org.uk/public/files/23305622/Mastery_Assessment_Y4_Low_Res.pdf may be useful (p12-14 are about addition and subtraction) to see what is meant by 'understanding', and why adding extra digits is not the same as true challenge.

My ds' (yr4) home work this week was exactly that!

It wasn't differentiated homework, it was for everybody. And included 4 digit addition and subtraction.

Okay, I understand the points being made about true challenge and that this is achievable without the extra digits. However the work is just straightforward addition and subtraction (using various methods e.g. decomposition) with 3 numbers. So no challenge in any direction, even the word problems are one step ones. It's very hard as a parent to know if there is a problem or just unreasonable expectations.

Last year's maths just seemed more interesting and a better fit - this is the first year DDs complained of finding maths boring, after a number of lessons all focused on 3d addition and subtraction.

And if you have page after page of correct calculations surely you don't need more fluency?
Still it seems the consensus is that it's not an issue if the understanding is there, so hopefully the next topic will be better, or at least less dull.

I'd talk to them now. If they haven't managed to challenge her even a bit a whole term in, something's up. If the next topic's set up better, great, they can tell you all about their plans. If it isn't, it sounds past time for a nudge.

I think you are missing a point OP.

People are saying not doing 4 digit doesn't necessarily mean lack of challenge.
But if your dd is made to do 3d again and again without any extra challenge(like decimal, converting etc), then it is a problem.

http://www.dyslexics.org.uk/spelling.htm

Sorry wrong thread

It sounds to me as if you absolutely should have a conversation with the school. However, your line should be an open-ended 'What are you doing to challenge my child in maths?' one.

If you say ''You are only teaching addition and subtraction with 3 digit numbers, please give my child some 4 digit ones", then an able child will no longer be challenged within the next 5 minutes .. but the teacher has done what you asked... It's a closed discussion.

If on the other hand you ask for teaching that continuously moves your child on to challenging material using the same concepts (which is how it is meant to work), then you may come to a longer term solution.