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Phonics which have 2 sounds - like cOW and snOW

55 replies

InTheDessert · 18/12/2016 16:30

Does anyone have a link to letter combinations which have 2 possible pronunciations??
My 7yr old (Y3) is really struggling with spelling. I've hunted down a chart which lists all the alternative spellings for one sound, but can't find the inverse. Does it exist?

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AuntieStella · 18/12/2016 17:55

You need to start with the sound, and look at all the ways to write that sound.

Only when that is secure, start looking at sight.

Phonics isn't a one-to-one set of correspondences, and essentially you need to forget everything about looking at words (as taught from 1960s for a while, now discredited) and instead concentrate on the sounds.

Msqueen33 · 18/12/2016 18:00

Ironically our senco said we weren't taught phonics like this (I'm 34). I'm a good reader and speller. My dd is 7 and has autism and finds spelling awful.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 18/12/2016 18:05

Phonics is still new and only really in state schools.

No it isn't. Loads of private schools use phonics to teach reading and spelling. Many switched over before most state schools did.

Actually, I'm not sure I know any that don't teach phonics at all.

AuntieStella · 18/12/2016 18:08

"Phonics is still new and only really in state schools."

Grin

Phonics is what has been around for centuries and was never phased out in many, many independent schools. It's thr fad methods of the late 20th century which have been shown to be generally less effective. Not the old, traditional method.

mrz · 18/12/2016 18:24

"Dsd's private school doesn't use phonics at all and likes kids to use traditional tools to increase vocabulary."
Traditional methods like phonics which is how everyone learnt to read and spell for centuries or traditional as in a philosophy for reading that has been around a matter of decades?

DailyFail1 · 18/12/2016 18:28

They really don't use phonics for beginners readong. Focus is on reading for meaning (traditional method) not decoding sounds. All of the feeder preps in my area to do this.

DailyFail1 · 18/12/2016 18:28

Reading

AuntieStella · 18/12/2016 18:36

'Reading for meaning' and 'phonics' really aren't antonyms. Because reading texts, with an adult, that the child cannot yet manage independent is a feature of any literacy programme. But it doesn't actually teach a child how to read.

But phonics has been used for teaching English since records began. Other methods are a newish fad (twentieth century only, widely discredited of shown again and again the produce less God results than the traditional approach).

mrz · 18/12/2016 18:41

"Focus is on reading for meaning (traditional method) not decoding sounds." Unless you can accurately read the words meaning is compromised and the process becomes a guessing game. Whole language isn't traditional in any sense of the word it is a twentieth century theory that failed spectacularly!

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 18/12/2016 19:09

All the preps in my area isn't quite the same as 'private schools' is it? All the ones in mine and the ones by nieces and nephews attend use phonics as the prime route to decoding.

InTheDessert · 19/12/2016 03:35

Thank-you.
Maizie we look at the pattern if they are testing one, and make sure he knows it (say le and el words, or suffixes) then do look, say, cover, write, check. Once he can do that reasonably well, I will get him to write them out in a muddled order (which is how they are tested). For the ones he gets wrong, we go back to looks, say...... For those words.

Any other suggestions welcomed. But it is a long term memory issue to my mind (I'm dyslexic, lots of similar issues I can see and not in the UK, so additional support none existent, except what I can do Sad). We can get them for the week, just not for the end of the term as a surprise - so they just haven't stuck.

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BertieBotts · 19/12/2016 06:31

Perhaps colour coding the different spellings of sounds would help? Whether to group by sound or spelling I'm not sure. And use a dyslexic friendly font. Maybe with flashcards? I saw a method recently which used boxes to help commit items to memory.

SausageD0g · 19/12/2016 06:41

Gosh dailyfail, I'm surprised. You'd hope schools you were paying money to would be ahead of the game!! It does show you don't pay for superior teaching necessarily.

mrz · 19/12/2016 07:27

I use the Sounds Write programme and we include specific lessons to teach the alternative sounds represented by the same spelling.

In your ow spelling example the child would decode words with the spelling representing both sounds and sort them into sets where the sound is /ou/ and where the sound is /oe/. The child would then write the words onto a grid. Alternatively you could use a book to record for future reference.

Phonics which have 2 sounds - like cOW and snOW
InTheDessert · 19/12/2016 07:51

Thanks mrz

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sirfredfredgeorge · 19/12/2016 09:16

As an adult it seems that spellings of new words tends to follow patterns of where the etymology of the word is, or at least where our brain categorises it. So beau / plateau sound a bit french so we'll use that spelling, audio / video sound a bit latin so we'll use that, everything else is ow.

Would looking at the roots of words and how they sound help?

mrz · 19/12/2016 09:29

Yes knowing the root can help and is part of the curriculum

maizieD · 19/12/2016 15:07

InTheDessert

Good spelling is a mix of secure phonic knowledge, enough reading experience to know if a word 'looks' wrong once it has been written and kinaesthetic (muscle) memory of the unique 'feel' that every word has when it is handwritten.

The way that Look, Say, cover, Write and Check (LSCWC) is usually taught is not at all helpful.

Firstly, it presupposes that spelling is a 'visual' skill and that pupils can visual the detail within the word (letters used and letter order). Some people are able to do this but most people can't. What is more, it is the weakest spellers who are least likely to be able to do it.

Secondly, it uses letter names and depends on the child remembering the order in which the letters are written in the word. This doesn't give the learner any useful cues at all; letter names are divorced from the sounds in the word and remembering letter order in several thousand discrete words is an impossible demand on memory.

Thirdly, it takes no account of the kinaesthetic aspect of spelling. Kinaesthetic memory is the element that ensures that you can spell familiar words without having the consciously think of the individual letters within it. It is the 'memory of the 'feel' of the word as each word has its own unique pattern which the writer reproduces as they write it.

Fourthly, it has no regard at all to the phionic element of spelling. That is the element which comes into play when you try to spell a word which might be familiar to you in its spoken form but you have never written. Most people find that they are thinking of the sounds within the word (maybe in chunks, rather than individual sounds) and write the letters which they know represent the sounds (or chunk).

I suggest for learning spellings:

Read the word and take especial note of the sound spelling which is likely to be tricky (like your 'el', 'le' example). Most of the less straightforward words only have one 'tricky' spelling in them. The rest of the sound spellings should be easy and familiar.

Cover the word, say it and break it down into its component 'sounds'.

Spell each sound in the order in which it comes in the word (writing a line for each word before you start and putting each sound spelling on a line can be helpful in ensuring that all the sounds are spelled) saying the sound as you write it. This helps to reinforce kinasthetic memory.

Check that the word sounds correct by sounding out and blending exactly what you have written.

Uncover the word and check that all the sounds have been correctly spelled.

Rewrite the word correctly several times, each time saying the sounds as you write them, to reinforce kinasthetic memory of the 'feel' of the word.

The sorting exercise mrz posted is really useful for learning the different way that the same sound can be spelled in a number of words; always saying the sounds as you write them.

This takes a long time to describe but it is quite easy to do. It was the only way I found that really helped to improve children's spelling, even if it was just to the point when they could spell phonetically correctly rather than hurl a collection of imperfectly remembered letters at the page in the hope that they were right!

What you do have to remember, though, is that if a child has been spelling a word incorectly for a long time their kinaesthetic memory of the wrong spelling will be well embedded and difficult to erase. I worked with KS3 children so you can imagine the hurdles I had to try and surmount Smile

I hope this is helpful

maizieD · 19/12/2016 15:09

Argh! 3rd para. 'visualise'

InTheDessert · 19/12/2016 16:09

Ok. We don't do LSCRC correctly Grin I would always do it phonically! But does that mean the say bit isn't 'cow' but "c-o-w", and your suggesting "c-ow". We've just read the word out slowly. Breaking it down further into sounds looks like a good plan.
Most of what we have is phonically plausible (except for switched b and d).
We had mite earlier today. Might just didn't feature as a possible until I asked about right, night and K-night (pronouncing the k).
Thank-you.

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mrz · 19/12/2016 16:27

Yes /k/ /ow/ not letter names and never /o/ /w/

maizieD · 19/12/2016 19:02

Thanks, mrz.

Ha! I could tell you a trick for not confusing 'b' & 'd' but I've been boring enough already Wink

It's nothing to do with 'bed', either..

I can't say my version of a spelling strategy is 'correct', it's just what I've accumulated over the years of doing phonics based work at KS3, reading round the subject and having various trainings.

I didn't quite understand what you were saying about 'mite'.

mrz · 19/12/2016 19:14

It's a plausible attempt at might just the wrong choice of spelling

InTheDessert · 20/12/2016 03:11

B and d, yes please Maizie.
We've tried bed in the corner, making bed with his fingers, b is a bat and a ball, d starting with daddys big tummy.

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