Year one appeal tomorrow.

[mumof32015]

Our family recently moved house. We had become overcrowded and we're in need of an extra bedroom. In September we were offered a house in a village next to where we had been living. Our new address has a school right around the corner, so we decided to enquire. We were told our eldest child would get a place straight away but we would need to appeal for our younger child who is in year 1. At the time I told the school I would leave it but they were very keen for me to look around and said appealing is a simple process. After looking at the school I felt it would benefit the family to go ahead with the move. The childrens current head teacher aggredo with us, even though he said he'd be sorry to see the children go. However tomorrow is the appeal and I am not happy with the comments that some of the school has made against us, one comment was that we moved to the area for a bigger house and the house we have now is still small. They have also stated that we have moved just to be closer to the school because it has become popular. Another statement is that there are 128 places at the school and 114 are filled. They've also said that we haven't made a formal application for our eldest child (which I haven't made because 1. I've been told it wouldn't add any weight to our case. 2. It actually caused her a lot of anxiety thinking she would have to move alone. 3. If she did move school and my other child didn't it would make things even more complicated.) I feel stressed about it all because when we went round the head teacher said he was confident we had a good enough case to win. Where as the head at our current school said the statements were unreasonable and they only ever go with the fact it would take the class size over 30. I just don't know what to do and obviously tomorrow I don't want to come over annoyed. Has anyone else had to sit and appeal before?

Hi op, we have had 2 failed appeals for secondary with substantial medical evidence so I get how you're feeling, it's a real kick in the teeth.

All I would say is don't let it take over your life like it did to me, my mental health has suffered massively as a result and as it turns out- my ds is happy and doing exceptionally well at a school i wouldn't have ever looked at.
Very best of luck to you and your dc, it will all work out fine hopefully x

Oh hello prh! Didn't see you there.

I've name changed since you helped me but I'm only down the motorway from you...

Ds is doing amazing and only the other day said he's glad he never got in, I will never regret appealing, just would never let it consume me so much, hopefully I will never have to again, dd will be going to her feeder school and she's only 5 now.
Hope you're well, E x

Hi Zoflorabore. Glad to hear your son is doing well. I'm fine thanks.

It does appear that the school gave incorrect information to the appeal panel. I would still ask if the LA can give you guidance on what to do next based on the evidence on the web site.

I did wonder why you had said three classes above but the school said there were two. This was the obvious conclusion to make given the argument they were makig at the appeal. The Appeal Chairman could have queried this but it is likely they woud make the assumption there were two classes and the school was not making anything up.

Was the appeal clerked independently? Is it possible to contact the Clerk? I would see if the Chairman of the Appeal Panel can be contacted too. At least to make the point that the web site says different to the info given at the panel meeting.

Is it possible that a teacher has left/given notice since you were shown around and the school has reorganised KS1 into two classes instead of three, or is planning to do so next term? This might account for the change in the headteacher's attitude, and I wouldn't be surprised at the website not having been updated, lots of schools struggle to keep their website up to date.

Is it possible that a teacher has left/given notice since you were shown around and the school has reorganised KS1 into two classes instead of three, or is planning to do so next term

Given that the OP was told they have 3 classes because they don't have room (which presumably means the classrooms cannot accommodate 30 pupils) that seems unlikely but not impossible.

I would still ask if the LA can give you guidance on what to do next based on the evidence on the web site

I'm sure the advice from the LA would be to take the matter up with the LGO. The LA cannot overrule the appeal panel or order a fresh hearing.

Yes, I realise the LA cannot do that, but they often know the organisation of schools and past records of admission. They may have knowledge that could inform any contact with the ombudsman.

Thank you for your response's it really has helped me a lot. I think when I got the information about the appeal I did look at it and think oh I thought it was 3 but them immediately thought I must be wrong. At the appeal they were arguing that there was no funding for a 3rd class room or teacher. No staff have been let go in fact they boasted at the viewing of the school that they have a large turnover of staff for a small school and that was why they were so confident we would win an appeal. I just don't understand why between meeting with them and going to appeal they completely changed their attitude. In my child's current yr1 class there are 30 and the head teacher told us that he has turned someone away and told them out right they would find it hard winning an appeal etc. Whereas I really feel I have been taken for a ride.

I just don't understand why between meeting with them and going to appeal they completely changed their attitude

They are required to oppose any appeal. The Appeals Code prohibits them from supporting an appeal. They must put up a case to refuse admission however supportive they have been in private.

A large turnover of staff is really a minus for a school. It has nothing to do with any appeal whatsoever. The only thing it could affect is the need to put the children into two classes rather than three because they are unable to recruit another teacher. I think the school has confused you and it was a pity you took their advice to heart. However, who is to know when people appear helpful and convincing?

I think that you need to establish once and for all what classes this school is running. A PAN of 18 says to me that they would have a net capacity at the school of 7 X 18 or 126, which equate really to 4 classes of 30. If the school was full at KS 2 then they would have 36 in each class, which they clearly do not.
What did the school's written papers say for the number of classrooms and what number of pupils in each? It is possible that there are 2 classes of 30 but then at some stage during the day, typically for english and maths, they split into 3 groups. However given that reception curriculum is very different from year 1 and 2, I would expect them if possible to be running with 3 classes.
The key to this is how many teachers do they have? Normally on the schools papers it would say how many Full Time Equivalent (FTE) teachers there are. If it is 4 + headteacher then they are running 2 classes, if it 4.5 or more +head teacher then they are running 3 teachers.
The information you have from the website and your visit would certainly suggest that they have 3.
If they have three infant classes then the infant class size regs do not have any standing because they clearly only have 19 in the Y1 class. When I asked before about whether the written information from the school said it was an ICS Regs case you seemed uncertain that it said so in the information. So between the school and the appeal panel they have decided it is an ICS Regs case because there are 60 pupils split between two classes not three. I will not assume the school is wholley to blame for that because it could be the panel have messed up here as well.
However what that means is that the panel made their decision on exactly the wrong reasoning. It should have been about whether the school or you had the better case for rejection or admission. There is a major problem for the school in the near future because they cannot run with 36 in junior classes and will have to convert to 3 classes across years 3 to 6, probably by cutting back to 2 in the infant section.

If you can show that there 3 classes then you should go to the LGO about it. However one thing you do need to consider is if they have deliberately given false information, do you want a place at the school?

Actually is it possible for you to copy the schools case and send it to me? I will tell you from that what case should have been presented. If you can PM me and I will send you an email address to send it to, as you cannot copy onto either this or the PM site.

Just to update I have found out today that after we told the school that we would be making an appeal and handing in the forms, 2 children were admitted into the infants outside of the catchment area. I don't known now if the numbers I were given were including these children or not.
To be honest the whole thing has really been a headache. And as much as it would have been a lot easier for me to walk my children around the corner, in light of all of this I feel happy to keep travelling. The headteacher told me that I could appeal again next year, but I feel it was a lot of stress for nothing. I am still waiting for the reasons why the panel said we were un successful

Were you on the waiting list and are you in the catchment area? The waiting list should be based on the entry criteria. You don't say if these children are in the year you are appealing for, but I think it's worth asking about it as the situation seems very confusing.

OP, I can fully understand what you are saying about now not being interested in the place at the school around the corner. There is a point where you loose faith in the school and in your shoes I would have also walked away given what has happened.
The point around the 2 extra pupils in infants is important. You had clearly asked for a place at the school prior to these, so the school should have been reviewing these two applications in the light of your applications. If we assume that these two were not included in the 60 specified at the appeal, then the school have driven a coach and horses through the ICS Regs by admitting them.
If we assume that the 60 pupils included these 2 late admissions then it really depends on which year group they are as to what the school should have done. If they were in reception year, as the school was not up to and is still not up to PAN of 18 in the year group then they should have been admitted. If one or more of the two were admitted to year 1, then there should have been a very careful examination at the appeal of when the applications were received, what the numbers were in the year group and whether they should have gained admission over and above your child on the basis of the admission criteria of the school. From previous information I do not think that they were in year 1. If they were in year 2, they should not have been admitted as the numbers were already above PAN. They should have been directed to appeal, just as you were, as the school was full.
It seems to me that the appeal panel only focused on one thing and that was it is an ICS Regs case and not on other issues like these two pupils that were admitted. It is a fairly standard question at appeal to check when was the last pupil admitted to the year group (and in your situation to all infant year groups) so that the panel is certain that the admission process has been carried out correctly.

I think I am going to look through the paper work again tomorrow. Since the appeal I just haven't been able to look at them so they have been sat in my glove box. I was just talking to my husband now about the class 2 numberso, when they go into yr 3 they will become a combined class of 36 by joining the year 4 children. But are there any restrictions on junior classes? I know that one of the children is a reception child but I don't know about the other only that it was the infants.
Can someone explain to me, if PAN is 18 will it be true that 6 families all appealed and won? A friend of mine said today that she didn't think any school could go over the maximum that they say they are admitting, if that makes sense.

They can go over if they wish. Most schools try very hard to hold the line though. It is better for the existing children and the staff. The huge difficulty this school has is the PAN of 18. There appears to be a lot of juggling to maximise numbers in each key stage. This comes about because the PAN of 18 is a very difficult number when you need 30 in a class at KS1. KS2 is not subject to class size restriction but the actual sizes of the classrooms does influence the PAN. They could hive off some children into the class above if necessary if it has spaces- but this is very far from ideal.

All schools are funded on a per capita formula basis. It may make more sense to have a PAN of 15 to give 30 over two year groups. This would mean reducing the overall size of the school by 21. This is almost a teacher in financial terms and this is why the school is juggling the numbers. Although, I think you said earlier it was not full. It could be they lose a few children after KS1 to private schools?

It will be very interesting to re read their submission.

if PAN is 18 will it be true that 6 families all appealed and won

Not necessarily. A school can decide to admit over PAN at any time if they feel they are able to do so. As long as they admit in the order determined by the admission criteria and don't go over the infant class size limit there is no problem with that.

You sometimes get a large year group where there is a rush of pupils wanting places. It could be that there were a lot of siblings that year for instance and in those circumstances small schools are always going to want if possible to take the pupils knowing that the next year group might be a small one.
I wonder whether these 6 children were not formally admitted under appeal but that this was the number of applicants that the school had in that year group who applied for a place at the school. Knowing that the current junior classes are not up to PAN, I suspect the school made a decision to admit all 24, knowing that if it went to appeal there was a fair chance they would loose all six appeals given the numbers in the school in each of the year groups above them.
Alternatively the school may have admitted over PAN to say 20 and the rest of the applicants then appealed and won because the school would have found it very difficult to defend having made the decision to admit over PAN.
It is also possible that all 6 did appeal and did all get a place allocated but that does not sound too likely on a PAN of 18.

I have had a look again at the paper work. This is how the numbers are.

R:17, YR 1:19, YR 2:24. It then says 60 between 2 classes.

The staffing of the school are as follows:
Headteacher plus 4.5 teachers ratio of 1.21.

The school has the following accommodation/organisational difficulties:
( this has been left blank.)

Applications for places at the school. PAN for the relevant 5+ age group 18

Current number of appeals (left blank)

Then at the end it says. The governors are unable to offer a place at this school for the following reasons:
Year group is already over PAN.

When listing all the other reasons why they were rejecting the appeal, they have stated that they have increased the PAN from 15 to 18. Then stating at the appeal that it still gives them room to admit more in.

With the way that finances in schools is now and given the size of the school I suspect that the headteacher has a 0.5 FTE teaching commitment, so they have in effect 5 teachers. If the PPA time of 10% is being handled by TAs or outside peripatetic teachers, then that means they probably have 5 classes full time or at least for say the mornings.
If you believe that the pupil to teacher ratio is 1 to 21, then with 4.5 teachers that means there are 94.5 pupils or there are only 34.5 pupils across years 3 to 6. Even if you make it 5 teachers then that comes to 105 or only 45 in years 3 to 6, which is believable.
The figures do point to there being 5 classes not 4.

Thank you for all your help. I just wish I had known all this before the appeal.

If I was to go ahead and make a complaint knowing that there 3 classes and not 2 (like the head was trying to claim to the panel.) What would happen?

If you express your concerns to the LGO, or the EFA if the school is an academy, the investigating officer will ask for all the paperwork that you and the school provided for the appeal, a copy of the clerk's notes, and a copy of the decision letter. He/she may speak to you on the phone. If they find fault you may be given the opportunity of another appeal with a different clerk and panel members.

In this case, if the LGO/EFA agree that the panel's decision is contrary to the facts of the case I would expect them to recommend a further appeal.