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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

One form or two form entry?

37 replies

Tallulahoola · 08/12/2016 22:03

Applying for a reception place for DD. Two schools near us so possibly we could get into either as a first choice.

School 1 has a lovely, nurturing atmosphere, great reputation, is academically excellent. Outstanding Ofsted rating. It is 1FE.

School 2 doesn't have the same academic results or reputation though it is improving and has a good Ofsted. It's certainly not a bad school and the kids seem happy. It is 2FE.

Until now I've thought school 1 was a no-brainer. DD is quite quiet and loves reading, writing, maths etc. I figured the smaller environment would suit her. But lately I've been worrying that a smaller school might not be so great for friendships. Even now at nursery I see little cliques forming - she has two 'best friends' but when the three are together the other two are obviously closer and sometimes leave her out. It doesn't really bother her at this age but am sure it would when she's older (if she was a boy this wouldn't worry me). So I'm thinking 2FE would give her more friends to choose from and she's more likely to find her tribe IYSWIM.

DH says I'm over-thinking the friends thing and that you can't predict that side of things. Is he right? I think he might be but just don't know.

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BikeRunSki · 08/12/2016 22:47

You're overthinking the friends thing. My Reception DD (5) is "best friends" with different people to who she was at nursery with. (Most of her class went to the same nursery. Although it is a 1FE school.

sirfredfredgeorge · 08/12/2016 22:52

You can't predict anything, one thing 2FE gives is more choice of people to know, and it gives flexibility for the school to re-arrange the classes if the dynamic in the class is not working out.

NynaevesSister · 09/12/2016 01:35

Generally they stick to their own class at playtimes etc so you don't really get a bigger range of friends.

However there are other pluses. A 2FE school will have more money. It is very difficult for a 1FE to provide the same level of provision. Ask about the extra curricular activities etc. Does the 1FE have a TA in every class all the way through? Do they have a specialist SENCo or is it a class teacher with a dual roll?

Most people look at primaries and barely glance past the infants. But the junior years are going to be really important and it's a good idea to look at what they offer.

sirfredfredgeorge · 09/12/2016 10:23

NynaevesSister in 2FE school here YR they mixed at playtimes, now in Y1 they still mix at playtimes and they also have some mixed lessons - e.g. anything that is grouped by needs they take from both classes.

golfbuggy · 09/12/2016 14:37

The answer is that 2FE definitely provides more potential friends and social opportunities, but if your child happens to get on with the other DC in their 1FE class then that will be fine too! On the other hand if they don't get on, they have nowhere to hide.

Personally I'd go for 2FE because a bigger school is likely to have more resources and offer more opportunities.

My experience is not that of Nynaeve'sSister in that my DC have always had friends across classes (in fact in Reception none of DS's friends were in his class!)

jamdonut · 09/12/2016 16:31

You can't predict and shouldn't push the friendships in my opinion.
In our school it is a 2 form entry, with separate class teachers, but in reception they spend a lot of the time playing outside in a shared play area, and also have free movement during "choosing" time. So friendships are fluid, and it tends to continue throughout the school.
Personally , I don't think having a Best Friend is great as that's how jealousies and fallouts occur. Much better to have a wide circle of friends that you can just slot into.

admission · 09/12/2016 21:04

Thinking about later on, when your child goes to secondary school, there is a general belief that pupils coming from bigger primary schools, like your 2fe school, settle in better to life in what will be a much bigger secondary school.
To me the biggest plus for the 2fe school is that the school will have more finances because of pupil numbers and therefore is likely to be able to offer a wider curriculum offer

elfonshelf · 10/12/2016 00:02

Unless the 1FE was considerably better, I would always go for a bigger school. More resources, more staff, more money, bigger friendship pool, ability to rejig classes each year if needed, higher numbers in ability groupings so a good cohort doing extension work and not just 1 or 2 kids struggling with SEN on their lonesome.

DD's in a school that has well over 400 pupils and it still feels close-knit.

bojorojo · 10/12/2016 18:25

As school budgets are based on a sum of money per child, a larger school has more money but more children too. The biggest expense is teaching so there is very little difference between the finance available to a 1 fe or a 2fe. The main advantage of a larger school is possibly better competitive sport and choice of friends and more teachers so specialisms can be better. The quality of the schools does not depend on size. Where you feel your DD will be happiest is importsnt.

user789653241 · 10/12/2016 19:20

If smaller school means less than 30 kids in class like private, I would choose small 1FE school. If it's just the size of school and not better teacher: children ratio, I would choose bigger school.
Sounds like your dc is able, it maybe difficult to have someone at same level. My ds is still a complete outlier at his 3FE school.

sleeplessinderbyshire · 10/12/2016 20:25

What's the PAN? Lots of "Two form entry" schools round here actually have a PAN of 50/55 with mixed year classes which really put me off as I think it's really hard for the youngest kids in the year to end up in class with 10 of them And 20 of the year below because they never get fully stretched, the poor teacher is run ragged teaching two curricula and they never get to be in y6

smellyboot · 10/12/2016 22:17

For em 2FE every time. 1 form can mean that many more opportunities for friends and the other reasons given below

Bobochic · 10/12/2016 22:19

All things being equal I would go for two form over one form but things are rarely equal.

Original poster

Tallulahoola · 11/12/2016 12:03

Thanks all. The school with 1FE is definitely a better school academically - because, tbh, it has a more middle class intake. It's the leading school in the area I guess, though that might be the snobbery of parents not wanting their kids to go to the other one which has a lot more children with English as a second language. So the main thing going for school 2 is that it's 2FE. Both are very over-subscribed but by a fluke of where our house is we could possibly get into either.

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smellyboot · 11/12/2016 12:53

2FE defo more friendship options and variety for the children. The small 1FE middle class school near us has very very skewed academic results due to the amount of tutoring of DC for entry to private schools at 11 or grammars in neighbouring area - so take that into consideration. You might find that 2/3 of year 5 have a tutor... thats also definately the case in the neighbouring LA. I avoided the small school near us as felt very claustrophobic by year 5/6 and few go onto the local high school.
Ask where the children move onto after year 6.
The 2FE may have excellent teaching of a total differenet type of intake.

bojorojo · 11/12/2016 18:57

Research on educational outcomes says good progress is overwhelmingly dependent upon the quality of the teaching - not the size of the class. Schools are now inspected where teaching quality is looked at over time which , in effect, is looking at the progress children make not just a snapshot visit looking at one lesson. Therefore you might need to consider how much progress the children make in both schools because this is the hallmark of a good school. Class size has little to do with it.

Cuppaand2biscuits · 11/12/2016 19:08

This is so interesting I'd always assumed people would choose a smaller school over a bigger one. My children go to a small school, so small it has just 4 mixed classes.
Early years & reception
Year 1 & 2
Year 3 & 4
Year 5& 6

It definitely has its cons as well as its pro's. Such as the small pool of friends to choose from. Perhaps it forces them to try to get along because they can't just jump to another group. Which is what you'd need to do as a grown up at work.

mirokarikovo · 11/12/2016 19:18

We have a 2FE school, my sisters children are are a 1FE school.

I don't think the friendship opportunities are that different. The big difference we notice is that the 2FE school has a much wider range of special-interest clubs and activities (not usually open to reception and Y1 so maybe not on your radar but will be relevant soon) just because it is easier to get a critical mass of interested kids. Also the 2FE has a more successful PTA programme because it has twice as many parents to draw on the time and imagination of, so there is more energy there.

smellyboot · 11/12/2016 20:41

We are three form and along with that comes a lot of extra resources and yes lots of clubs and also chances to do things with different groups of children. We have specialist teachers in many areas, huge choir, orchestra, loads of different sports teams etc. I used to think small would be better before we made our receeption choices. Now I am a total convert the other way.

BackforGood · 11/12/2016 22:24

My dc went to one like smellyboots - 3 form entry, and it provided so many more opportunities for extra clubs and teams, etc. - more staff likely to = more interests.
I also totally agree with admission about the transition to secondary being easier from a bigger school (I know 2 form isn't big, but it's bigger than 1 !) . I've heard it said time and time agin from different secondary staff how well the dc from the 3 form entry school settle, as they've been used to being mixed into different classes, they've been used to setting for some subjects, they've been used to doing in lots of extra curricular stuff with dc who aren't in their class, they've been used to mixing with yet different dc at breakfast and after school clubs, etc.,etc. Probably not on your radar yet, but it will be there in the blink of an eye.

70ontheinside · 11/12/2016 22:35

Transition into secondary is 7 years away. I would go with the smaller, imho more child friendly, 1FE, especially if the school is better academically.

BackforGood · 11/12/2016 22:38

Yes, but Junior school isn't, with the far greater range of opportunities then.

OddBoots · 11/12/2016 22:47

I would always go for the bigger school, especially now when school funding is being reviewed and there is a good chance that it us going to get tougher for smaller schools. If a school shows better results because of the intake if the school rather than because of the teaching then those results have to be viewed in context.
I have also seen what has been said about the move to secondary being easier from larger school.

smellyboot · 11/12/2016 23:20

The move to secondary comes v fast. At our school around 85/87 move to local high so DC transition with hardly a blink of an eye. Very different if you are the only one from a tiny school where loads of your mates have gone private and you turn up not used to big schools and not knowing any one..

OlennasWimple · 11/12/2016 23:25

We had always thought that 1FE was ideal, and in the early years it definitely was. But as DS has got older we appreciate that he is now at a bigger school, which offers a wider range of activities than a 1FE school could ever offer, along with bigger facilities and more space for friendship groups to wax and wane.

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