Mixing children up EVERY year...

[Indigo2468]

Feeling puzzled and concerned about my DC's primary school. I may be overreacting but would love to know if this is becoming normal practice.

The school always had a few classes with mixed age groups, for example a Year 1/2 and a Year 4/5. However, the PAN has been maximised over the last three or four years so now each classroom is bursting. One of my DC was in a KS2 class last year with 46 pupils. This is still typical in many KS2 classes.

However, last summer they have completely restructured the classes so that there are no single aged classes. They have tried to make room for these extra pupils but it seems to have gone too far. Classes are now as follows:

Reception
Reception
Year 1/2
Year 1/2
Year 1/2
Year 2/3
Year 3/4
Year 3/4
Year 4/5
Year 4/5
Year 5/6
Year 5/6

Now, I am not against mixed age classes but what the school doesn't understand is that children are being split from their friends and it has been like starting school again for many children. My DD has been put in a class with two children from her previous class and didn't know any of the others. There was no reason which I can see for the school to do this, except for putting everyone in the same boat of being mixed up so no one can complain. Furthermore, they have basically put Year 2 children in the Juniors which I am soooo against. Basically they haven't got enough room for the children so are squeezing them into any possible space. So the Year 2 year group (50 children) have been split into four classes.

As my DC progresses through the school, they will be mixed up every year and with new children every year. To add to this, the school doesn't seem to be able to hold onto staff as my DC seem to have different supply teachers every week.

Am I overreacting to want to transfer my DC to another school? There is such a feeling of uncertainty and a lack of structure, but I know sometimes moving schools is more upsetting for children.

Has anyone experienced such a set-up at their child's school? What do you think?

We didn't have mixed age classes, but otherwise, we were mixed every year (3 to 4 classes per year). You didn't even find out until you came back in the autumn, which class you were in! It was just normal. You still saw friends at playtime and lunch, and there were occasional cross-year activities when we all did things together, or were mixed into different groups for maths etc. And you knew that you might be back with people the following year. I guess we were just used to it - it was part of the excitement/nerves of going back each year, which teacher you'd get and who'd be in your class. In the end, we knew everyone in the year group pretty well.

I can see that for children who aren't good at change, or who really depend on one friend, it wouldn't be great. I was probably lucky that I was OK (I didn't really have a best friend ever, so for me it was like having a new start each year, new patterns of interaction, new possibilities to make friends etc)

Thanks for both your replies and your positive comments which have eased my concerns a bit! Just takes a bit of getting used to I supposed as when I was at school I was with the same children from 4 years old until 11 years old. I suppose mixing them up regularly makes children more resilient! But, if the school was structured like this when I viewing the school as a potential possibility a few years ago, I definitely would not have chosen this! Thanks for your views though

Just to also add my positive comments of a "mix them up every year approach". DD's school also does this (4 classes per year group) and DD's experience is that she's essentially ended up with a different "in class" friendship group every year whilst retaining friendships with a smaller group of "best friends". In fact this year (Year 6) she's become very close friends with 2 girls who joined the school in September - something I don't think would have happened if she'd been wedded to the same friendship group.

I'm now very confident about her ability to adapt at a secondary school next year as she's used to adapting to new situations, making new friends and getting on with a variety of others.

Also it's been very positive in terms of it's allowed her to make friends that are appropriate to her age/stage and to "lose" old friends without there being any trauma. I think if you spend 7 years with the same group of people it can get very intense!

The school does sound very crowded, with the mixed age/year groups, but I'm another one who was in a re-mixed group every year of primary school with no ill effects. Didn't know until first day of school each year which other children I'd be with as there were two or three classes per year group. I had the same best friend throughout primary school, but I think we were only in the same class for about half of our schooling. We just hunted each other down at break times. No biggie.

I think, with the new curriculum being fixed for a particular year group, there are real problems with the approach set out by Indigo. Why are some children in Y5 with those in Y4 but some with those in Y6? I would be fuming at this. It really smacks of the lower ability children being hived off, with the Y4 children, for everything, not just Maths and English. It is happening all the way through the school. Or is is done by birthday so the summer born ones are kept behind with younger pupils? Again, unsatisfactory. How are the school proposing to teach the new curriculum to the individual year groups with this arrangement? They are making it very difficult for theselves. The only fair way is to do R, Y1/2, Yr 3/4 and Y5/6 if they must do it. This is the same for all. Or, accept some classes are smaller than others; but the expense of this is possibly prohibitive.

I think there should be a change around at Y3 (KS2 curriculum) and maybe before Y5, but definitely causes problems in Y6. It is not particularly healthy for children to have just one friend. If that friend moves away, it can be almost like bereavement so having many friends and slotting in with other children is good.

I agree Bojo, but what is more confusing however is that the mixings are apparently completely random. I would understand it more if it was about ability or birthdays, but they keep saying there is no reason why a year 2 child is in a Year 1/2 class or why another year 2 child is in a Year 2/3 class. Children are not even divided into their own year group for Maths and English so I am puzzled at how they are teaching the curriculum per year group. Year 2's in the KS2 class are being taught KS2 topics and are in the KS2 Christmas play so are being treated differently to the rest of Year 2. These are not the oldest or brightest either.

What I feel is a shame is that whilst Year 2's in the Year 1/2 classes still have a dressing up corner, the carpet area and toys in the classroom, the Year 2 children in the Year 2/3 class have none of this, just tables and chairs as they are in the KS2 block. This may sound silly to some but I feel like these children have missed out on a KS1 year, just because there was a lack of planning for extra pupils in school.

Surely the KS1 rule of 30 pupils per class will still apply to the Year 2/3 class?

I really think I would complain very loudly!

The school must teach the national curriculum to the correct year group- no ifs, not buts. It is how it is. The Y2 chidren would struggle to do the Y3 curriculum with lack of prior learning. Do have a look at the maths national curriculum and you will see what I mean. They must, presumably be taught their section of the curriculum in two groups which would be very difficult for the teacher, but not impossible with an effective TA.

Schools do have to recruit up to the published PAN, so if it is 45, they have no control over this. They may have had some children put into the school on appeal. However 90 children over 2 year groups is 3 classes of 30. Therefore Y5/6, Y3/4 etc. There may be a few anomolies but they have to fund that until the full 45 in each year is reached. Is it 45 in every year yet? Mixed classes have become more difficult to organise due to the new curriculum. You could have reading ages that differ widely and abilities that range from learning difficulties for younger children to gifted children in the older part of the class. The new curriculum makes managing this situation very difficult and children really must be taught the age specific curriculum and assessed as to whether they are working below, near, at or above the age specific requirements.

Your comment about the Christmas play is fundamentally unfair and does not appear to give Equal Opportunities to all children in that year group. Check the school's policy on this. Normally, for equal opportunties, if it is a school activity for a year group, it must be offered to all children, not just some. (Or none of course). Do you have an Equal Opportunities Governor? You should do.

If I am totally honest, I do not really think children in Y2 need toys and dressing up. Mine left that behind in Reception. It is difficult to see how it is built into the KS1 curriculum. There would not be time and it could be very distracting from a greatly enhanced curriculum. Usually children dress up for Victorian Day or something similar but do not have a dressing up corner at age 7.

I think the KS1 rule for no more than 30 in a class does apply for those children. Are there more children than 30 in a Y2/3 class? It sounds like they are actually over PAN, not at it!

If you have lots of supply teachers, the school is unpopular and probably poorly run. No good school and excellent Head gets into this sort of trouble.

Does the year 2/3 class consist of higher ability year 2s, and lower ability year 3, perhaps? So that the year 2s can benefit from being extended into year 3 curriculum, and the year 3s dont feel so left behind because the lessons are pitched somewhere in the middle?

It sounds complicated, but doable,I would think.

Our school mixes every year.
I don't like it.
I think it advantages the confident social children. And disadvantages the ones who need a bit more support socially. That's my observation over three children.

My observation is that those who struggle socially are beginning to feel secure in friendships round about the first half of the summer term. That is also when the teachers are deciding who sticks with who, so, guess what, they don't put them down as inseparable friendships, so they get split again.
Those confident ones, who are noisy about their friends tend to stay together.
It's a large school, so once you've been split from your friend you are very unlikely to get back with them again.
They ask them to list 10 children from their form they would like to stay with. Which, on the basis most children list 10 the same sex as them, means they're listing about 2/3 of them. The forms are then divided into 6, so they're only with 5 other children.
And even with that number, in 3 out of 4 years dd2 wasn't managed to be put with any of her choices.
Those that are split from friends often lose confidence in making friends, and by year 6 don't feel there's much point trying.
I noticed that there very much ends up with two groups: the confident sociable group who get more confident and often aren't ever split from their friends. And the ones who are lacking in confidence and never stay with their friends.

I understand the logic in mixing once over juniors. I think every year is a disaster for many children.
I did suggest to the head that as he thought it was good for the children to work with different children each year (his argument for it) the same could be said for the staff and they ought to link with say three different schools and swap round. He didn't dignify me with his answer.

**Bojo the PAN is 50 so they have 100 in KS1, therefore 10 have been put in Year 2/3.

**Jamdonut no I have been told it's nothing to do with ability. One comment made was that they have tried to create 'equal classrooms'. Putting an equal number of high ability pupils, equal number of low ability pupils, equal number of SEN, etc. Don't know how much of that is true or possible.

**Witchend that process sounds very complicated!

It sounds like a box ticking exercise for Ofsted in the pursuit of differentiation.

Last summer I really felt like taking my DC out of the school after a dismissive conversation with the head, but the DC say they're happy there which is the main thing in the grand scheme of things.

Jam: You cannot teach Y3 curriculum to Y2. If you have Y2 children working above the national curriculum for that year, the teachers set extension work for Y2 topics! They cannot stray into Y3. If the selected children are random, then many could not do that level of work anyway because they will not have the foundation building blocks to do it. It is simply not possible!

50 is a stupid pan!!! It is not divisible by 15!! 30, 45, 60 etc are the normal numbers. Why on earth they have agreed to this is beyond me. It is a number that just does not work. In y3-6 it is less of a problem if you are really ok with 33-34 in a class but for ks1 it just does not work. It is compromising the delivery of efficient and high quality education in the school and I cannot believe the governors are happy with this. I would be really angry at Y2/3 classes being over 30.

Sounds like the school is somewhat chaotic and not well led.

Lots of children are happy at crap schools! They are not judging the standard of education though, are they?

I agree with mixing up every year. As a (now ex teacher) I had a particularly challenging class. Children with a lot of needs (behavioural) and needed outside agency support who were also highly disruptive. Imagine your child in a class with children who disrupted their learning, swore, assaulted, threatened and basically violent from reception all the way to year 6 - 7!years of subjected to fear, intimidation and regular disruption to their education?
I am not saying this is your child, but it isn't just one reason why I am all for it.

As a parent, it is fucking awful when your four year old is split from his best friend; friends since 9 months old and have spent most weekdays together at nursery.
I sucked it up and made myself realise that my son needed to branch out and have a mix of friends. He still sees his best mate every day at break times and in shared areas within foundation and play dates so it wasn't the end of the world.
Also as I am not 'friends' with any of my primary aged school chums the likelihood is, neither will my child as he he grows, ventures out and begins to socialise and branch out towards his interests.
Sometimes I think it is parents who suffer the lot from mixing classes and splitting in-class friendships than the child. All we want is for our children to be happy and secure and when that is threatened, all we want to do is protect and nurture. But kids are resilient and most get in with the situation they find themselves in.

The social element I would not be overly concerned about but the lack of an apparent reason for the way the classes are arranged ... yes, I really would be very bothered about that. And no, I don't think you are wrong to consider moving your child. WRT the statutory class size maximum I think this applied to classes where the majority of children will turn 5, 6 or 7 during the school year. And regardless on infant class size legislation... a class of 46 children under one school teacher (if I've understood right??) Just .... no.

I wished our DC were mixed up - a lot of parents at our schools hate that they didn't, but have started with lower years. DC can make new friends and reinvent themselves. Other schools near us do it.
We avoided a one form entry per year school as we found the idea of such a small school claustrophobic if there were friendship issues.
Friends tell me it's the norm in the USA and they love it. Id query the logic behind the mixed years tho as never heard of that to that degree.

Many small rural schools somehow have to manage the new curriculum in mixed year group classes, and seem to do so perfectly well, they have no choice. therefor there is no reason why larger schools can not manage to do it too..

There are many successful schools with mixed year groups but this is a very odd way of mixing children up and it appears some of them do not have the same opportunities as others in their year group. A school that introduces this does have to think about delivering the curriculum and other curricular opportunities, e.g. Concerts, trips, sport, music, to all the children in a year group. The national curriculum, as it is now, does make this more challenging because children must be taught the curriculum for their age not that of the children in the same room. That is not to say it is impossible. Of course it is not.

Hels71 I totally get that it's the norm and necessary in tiny schools. I have friends in schools of way less than 30 in a year group but I've never heard if it in schools where they don't have to. Having said that there are loads of PAN 45 schools out there

Before we moved, my DC's school was moving rapidly to a two form entry in every year group. Though not the same situation as yours, it did lead to a lot of instability and stress for the staff and children (I was a governor at the time). My children found it confusing and unpleasant, and struggled in school as a result. Now, perhaps I have sensitive children, but in the end I was relieved to be moving house and schools because the situation was overwhelming for them. There was a constant influx of new staff, new students (often without any paperwork for staff to work from, so were expected to start from scratch with assessments and behaviour reports, etc), behaviour issues were rife, not enough space during assemblies, and a general sense of chaos.

In your shoes, op, I would be looking for a different school. The year 2 situation alone is worrying in itself, but combined with all you've said I would be very unhappy about sending my dc there.

Now, I am not against mixed age classes but what the school doesn't understand is that children are being split from their friends and it has been like starting school again for many children

I have massive issues with it - I cant see the point. It hasn't worked for us - DD has been split up from her BF for four years now and her friendships have suffered because by chance her little group have all managed to stay together bar her ( about 5 girls) EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
Its brushed off casually by teachers I have raised it with " they see each other in the play ground" they have had little understanding of how these things work.
If my dc is coming home feeling left out and cut off - thats whats happening to her.
I was in school with mixing and I also suffered then went to school with no mixing and it was wonderful.

Imagine your child in a class with children who disrupted their learning, swore, assaulted, threatened and basically violent from reception all the way to year 6 - 7!years of subjected to fear, intimidation and regular disruption to their education?

well my dd had this all of last year everyone said the class had high level of disruptive pupils AND ON TOP OF THAT once again DD did not have her friends with her. In the end they moved one particularly disruptive pupil to another class.

Sad to think DC who try their hardest to be good like my DD - is punished due to the bad behaviour of other pupils?

Winter - I agree with you 100% in regards to the social side of this, your poor DD. One of my DC was split from their friendship group for one year and it was a nightmare so I sympathise with your DD. I complained then too but the teacher said that at that age friendship groups always change, etc, and wouldn't budge on the issue. As far as I am concerned a lot of the time when a child makes friends in Reception, they stay friends with those children throughout Primary at least.

Mixing children like this of course depends on if they have fell lucky and their friends are in their class and also how socially confident they are - some children will make new friends wherever they are. One of my DC has a friendship group of 4 girls and the school have put one of these girls into each of the four mixed classes - one in the Year 2/3 class and one each in the three Year 1/2 classes. So at least all her friends are in the same boat and she hasn't been separated I suppose. It does make me think though - these girls have been friends since being in the school nursery 3 years ago so either no teacher in the school has noticed who is friends with who OR they just don't care. Probably a bit of both...