What extension work do able children get in your school?

[Itshouldntmatter]

My DCs school does not seem to do much in the way of extension work for able children (DC1 in Y3). For Maths, for example, it is simply reasoning examples of the work they are doing, and explaining to peers who do not understand the concepts.

I was wondering what extension work other schools give? I know that there will be good (as in engaging and motivating) and bad (as in totally uninspiring) practice, and I'm really most interested in the ideas that really engage the children.

I should add, based on the definitions a friend gave me, my DD is talented and loves to learn (e.g. high performer across the board), rather than gifted (e.g. supreme talent in one or more area).

They can go beyond year group objectives but many refuse to. Personally if they've got something (like the addition) and can reason properly and solve problems in lots of different concepts and contexts (which does take time to establish so teacher may just want enough evidence before moving on), I see no point in repeating it over again. There's nothing worse in looking in a book and seeing a week of addition where the kid got it on Monday and had repeated the same thing all week. What's the point? They've learnt nothing new (even if they're adding millions by Friday!) I'd be looking at giving an open ended investigation or looking to the next objectives of relevant and appropriate as sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't!
If your DC scored full marks on the scaled scores they're a pretty good mathematician! However they can still be taught mathematical thinking and approaches.

ShoeEatingMonster, so even the greater depth bit is still only classed as secure?
How do you measure mastery? How much depth do they need to go before allowed to proceed?
TBH, I lost hope when comes to maths extension, but my ds never complained before. Now he says he feels like wasting so much time at school when he can learn so much at home. It is very frustrating.

No some of the greater depth stuff is more like it but assessing a child as "mastering" is more than being able to do the things on that sheet.

Thank you, I get what you mean. Yes, that's definitely true.

When DS was in Year 1 and Year 2 he was often taught content beyond his current year, and his work was differentiated as the teachers knew it was too easy for him when he did the same as everyone else.

Now in Year 3 he has a new teacher and I think she knows by now what he is capable of and she is also giving him work differentiated to his level. The first week he was doing the same work as everyone else and he said it was easy; but the following weeks based on what he tells me it seems that the children are sitting in ability tables. His table always gets the most difficult work in maths, but even within his table the work is not the same for all children. For example, when they were practising partitioning some children where working with two digit numbers, others with three and DS was given four digit numbers. If other tables are practising column addition with two digit and one digit number, in his table they are practising column addition with three or four digit number and subtraction.

With regards extension, he did mentioned today his table had been given a challenge (a sort of maze that you needed to solve in order to get to the middle). I don't know what it was but he really enjoy it because he said it was there to be solved if you had time left after doing your work, and he tried different ways of calculating to make his way through the maze but only on the third day he managed to solve it and he said he had been the only one in the class to do it. He was quite proud of himself. That tells me the teacher is trying her best to have things available to stretch the children. I haven't had the Parents Evening yet, but DS seems quite happy.

On the other hand, his maths homework so far has been to practise at home some very easy times tables (2,3,5,10) for the weekly test, which requires zero effort from him as he already knew all the times tables up to 12 since Year 1. But, I'm not that bothered as that means the only homework he has to do is Topic (Science, History, etc) and we have more time to do other things at home.

ShoeEatingMonster you have become my mumsnet hero. Thank you so much for answering my questions. I can understand that the school doesn't really want (or have the time) to deal with all of the minor complaints of all parents, but as a parent I want my child to keep that passion for learning, and not get turned off by a restrictive approach (if that is what it is). I am meeting the teacher next week, and the knowledge you have given me will enable me to probe into what DD is being given. I suspect it is a weeks worth of the same extension work, that was 'mastered' early in the week, and was just repeated through the rest of it. She is astoundingly fast (too fast sometimes, which is why mastery is a good thing), but at the same time, it seems criminal that she should have to keep going over and over something she has clearly already got. I can understand why so many schools do seem to interpret the mastery thing (as portrayed in those documents that Irvine kindly posted) as meaning nothing can go beyond the year work. But the basic principle that no one is incapable of maths (true), and no one is just born an innate natural propensity to excel at maths (which I would dispute) and so it is fine to treat everyone the same is just ludicrous (in my view).

Completely agree with Itshouldntmatter. I think what I find baffling is why it's such an issue fulfilling the needs of the more able for many schools.

Why does it matter so much that they have to be 'ahead' ?
It is no wonder some children get "bored" if you are pushing them ahead all the time. It means they have to sit in their class, while the teacher gives input, thinking "But I've done this already!" while the rest of their class are seeing it and trying to understand it for the first time.The teacher may not necessarily know that your child can do what s/he is showing them,because they are following a scheme.
Just because your child can column add up ,because you've shown them how to do it, doesn't mean they understand place value. You may not see the point of how they are shown to do maths at school, because you ' didn't do it like that', but please, let school get on with their job! Otherwise your child is going to spend their entire time at primary school always being fed up.

It seems so many of you aren't prepared to let school get on with it,or don't trust school to teach your child, and yet you spend ages making sure you get your children into the "right" school.

All of my own children are good academically, and my youngest is particularly clever and was able to read at 3 years old - Not that I actively taught him. He also has a very good general knowledge and scientific brain.
But I let his primary school (The nearest one to where we live...it has been in special measures while they were there) get on with the job of teaching him .He was never bored.

( He managed 4 A* , 5A's and 2B's in his GCSEs this summer...without any input from me or any tutors, going to a perfectly normal secondary school.
This is my boast.)

jamdonut, it doesn't matter to me that my child is "ahead", but I do expect him to be challenged at school.

I actually don't really want to show him how to do any extra work at home!

I'm not sure who has said anything about the "right" school. My DS also goes to the local school, but even if he didn't, so what?

I want him to be happy and as his mum believe that being challenged at school helps him to be happy!

At the age of 6, I have no idea about what he will get in his GCSEs, I'm concerned about this year and that he carries on being challenged and loving school, which he absolutely did in his reception year.

Jamdonut - I'm guessing you didn't actually read the whole thread. Because I did say that I have never done Maths at school, and today was the first time I tried it. So in the same way you manage to say my youngest is particularly clever and was able to read at 3 years old - Not that I actively taught him - my DD has never been 'actively taught' by me. I don't have time, or the energy, along side my full-time job.

And clearly, it was great that your children weren't bored in school. But the question was posted because schools do things differently, and some things work better for some kids than others. Schools do things differently. There are examples of great practice, and examples of less great practice. I really like my DD's school, but given my DD IS bored, and given half a chance would LOVE to be be inspired and engaged, I think it is worth just talking to the school about.

Oops - meant never done Maths at home.

I did do maths at school, clearly.

And Iorsa - it is my turn to totally agree with you

DD in year 5 now has a high school teacher come in once a week and take her extension group for maths - there's about 5 kids in it I think. Other than that, there are challenge cards that they collect and work on after they've finished the class work.

Her school do teach beyond the year group though, as I know she'd covered a fair amount of "year 5" literacy and maths work last year in year 4.

DD is also in Y3 and loves learning. She is ahead of the others in her class, but never complains she is bored. She is given reasoning and problem solving type activities (NOT just word problems). It really makes sure she has understood the concept deeply and isn't just 'turning a handle' and getting an answer. I am a maths specialist and have a degree in maths, and I am very happy to go with the school's approach.

Lorsa, itshouldn'tmatter,

Point taken.

Sometimes, though, I read these things and just wonder why people worry so much! It just feels like some people want their children to be ahead of "the game" , and quite honestly I don't think it is to any advantage.

I found my son's books from when he was in year 2, the other day,( so, 2006/7) and although the topics are basically the same, the standard the children work at in Year 2 now (the year group I am currently a TA in) is way higher than he was working at.

In my class, children say they are bored when they don't want to do work, and would rather be playing.

We have to make sure that the children have a solid grasp of concepts, and if that means they have to do something over and over again, it is because they are not demonstrating that grasp. When they do show they can do it , they can move on to whatever the extension, or next step is.

Because when it comes to SATS, they have to be able to do it without any help.

jamdonut, your children might have been lucky, they may have got differentiated work without you realising. Or Old NC was better for able children. I don't know.
Now with new NC, a lot of children are facing deepening this, mastering that, when they do know the concept inside out. It seems like up to each school, but it happens. My ds is secure with times tables before reception( for the record, I didn't force him, he was/is hyperlexic), but still gets times table HW every week in yr4. He does it, but I see no point.

I don't want or need him to be ahead, I just want him to be learning something, rather than doing something he is secure 4 years ago over and over again.

Ha, ahead in a particular school at primary might say a little nothing. Being so bored of every single lesson on the other hand is another thing. Well, I come to accept it and find school is really a place to learn English and any other subjects and more of having fun with friends. Even sitting at the most able table among the most able group, it fails to stretch her. I hope she hang on there for another 3 years then Secondary school will be swamped with challenge(if she could get a place in any selective school). Had it a fee paying school then there are so much else could be offered, for a state school then it should be it.

The thing is, another 3 years is kinda a long time to a child as she lost interest in her homework and her maths lesson and makes careless mistake. I am worried it could form a bad habit and could switch her off for good. I have made a time table where I intend to give her some challenge from next term. I havent found a material yet, still researching

DD in year 2 got 40/40 in phonics, Mastery in several areas of the curriculum in Year 1 and Exceeding on all areas of EYFS.

She is taken out for phonics and reading and works in a small group completing the next stage of the Phonics programme whilst the rest of the class is recapping from last year and also works developing comprehension skills covering the higher level elements of the SATS test.

The school is in a deprived area with many children with SEND and behavioural issues and they do well supporting both ends of the ability spectrum.

Interesting read. Going back to the OP, as we have only just finished a half term, teachers will have made their own initial assessments about the ability level of their new cohort. Some schools don't specifically plan for extensions until they are sure that the children have grasped basic concepts in lets say in reasoning.
Data is such a complex tool (coming from a teacher this is) and should not be seen as the 'be all and end'. I have spent this morning teaching 2D shapes and their properties to Y1. All the data which came up to me from Reception was that all children could recognise the common shapes and name properties. I knew this information before teaching the lesson of course so I'd produced some examples of shapes where the HA children could be extended, had to read the clues, write what the shape could NOT be and why they knew (i.e. It is not a circle because it has a straight side) I can tell you that 8 children in my class could not distinguish a rectangle from a triangle from a square. This meant I had to postpone my extension/reasoning piece of work and spend 20 minutes going over shapes with children who I initially thought would have found this activity meaningful but doable.

Sometimes the best laid plans can lie in ruins.
Maths tomorrow is sorting and describing 3D shapes but I've quickly had to annotate plans because there is no point in these 8 children going onto 3D shapes before mastering 2D.
Another concern of mine is that the parents of my lovely children will not be aware that their child does not recognise these shapes because they were told they were 'expected' level in shape, space and measure.
It's all a numbers game and I sometimes wonder why I bother!

What a shame that she was "bored" all of last year and all of this year so far.

Was there nothing that interested her at all?

You're not in a good position to judge the teaching of her class teacher, as you are hearing it from the perspective of a bored 9 year old. You would be better off raising a query with the school and asking if it can be looked into.

Zippy moving away from my concerns about my child, I can honestly say that I think that teachers have an impossible job. I think my own 70s (or 80s) education served me better. By current standards, it would be considered crap. We didn't learn anywhere as much as children have to consume nowdays (talking about primary school). But we had so much more time for exploration and creative thinking. I know that the teachers in the school are doing as best a job as they can, and they have to try and ensure the children at the bottom end of the scale achieve. I think if my DD had more freedom to do what she wanted, she would be less bored. She would spend her time doing art, and making things up with her friends, and exploring random concepts that teachers had time to let children explore, and doing big projects (I'm describing my childhood education here), and thinking more. But as it is, the school system (read NC), insists that the children 'learn' loads of facts and information really young. But then, teachers have to work so hard on trying to get everyone up to the right standard, there is no real time for children to explore, and as a result the more capable children just get bored. Teach them less, they will learn more. But hey. I guess I'm in a minority harking back to the good old days where schools taught less, but teachers (and children) had more freedom. Long live Ken and the ILEA

There were things that she enjoyed. She was so excited about wiring her own light to light up in science. She enjoyed fractions. I really don't think it is a problem with the class teacher, other than in the fact that she doesn't really know my DD because she has so much stuff to do and she is quiet in school. But even then, the teacher is managing 30 odd children, with a huge NC demand. However, given they don't know that my DD is bored (I don't think), then I can talk to them about it, and talk to them about what I observe of her learning (given I have much more biased focus on her as an individual), and then see what happens...