Faith schools to become MORE selective ...

[jailhouserock]

See the original thread in the In the News section for details, but the Gvt is planning to remove the 50% faith admissions cap on new faith academies.

Strawman argument, not relevant and there's no 'selection' involved with faith schools.

I notice there's a distinct absence of complaint about schools that do select (grammar, private education, single sex)......

I notice there's a distinct absence of complaint about schools that do select

You are clearly living on another planet. Mumsnet is full of it. This thread is about one single aspect of selection. And it is selection.

oK, T4nut, how about an admissions policy for non faith schools that puts people of faith at the bottom of the list of criteria? That's fair, isn't it, considering they come high up the list at faith schools?

jailhouse

No, the admission code is very specific in its wording. Being able to place faith criteria near the top of admission criteria is not selection. Grammar entry is selection.

Bertrand again an unworkable strawman argument. And hypothetically you could do that - however as all other criteria that could apply to someone of a faith background (ie sibling, feeder school, catchment) would give them a higher priority its a bit of a nonsense to even have the conversation.

"Bertrand again an unworkable strawman argument. And hypothetically you could do that - however as all other criteria that could apply to someone of a faith background (ie sibling, feeder school, catchment) would give them a higher priority its a bit of a nonsense to even have the conversation"

In other words, you don't like it and won't engage with the argument. The criteria would be 1 Looked after children. 2.Siblings.3. Children not brought up in any faith. 4. Children who are members of any faith community.

Or, how about if you apply to a faith school under the faith criterion you automatically move to the bottom of any list for any non faith school. That would be fair, surely?

My DD goes to a catholic school. Out of her friendship group of six, two are catholics, one is muslim, and two are COE.
It's a fab school, by far the best in the area. The local comp is dire.

And how would you evidence '3'? No definition of faith or what being brought up in it is? No feeder schools for this hypothetical school serving the community?

Happy to tear your strawman to pieces if that's what you want.

Usual silly arguments abound from people who have some form of prejudice against faith schools.

If you want one you have the option of applying to one. if you don't you don't have to. No-one is being forced, no-one is being prevented.

t4nut the nearest state school to me - a Catholic primary a few doors along from my home - would not even give me an application form for my son. My son eventually went to school in another borough, while kids from much, much further away across London were driven to the primary school in my road. My son was denied a place in his local state school because of religious discrimination. He was prevented. We didn't have any option at all.

This is by no means an unusual situation where I live - many of the school here are Catholic, and if you are the right sort of Catholic (they even discriminate against some Eastern European Catholics, never mind other religions), you have the option of applying for most of the schools in the area, if you are not that religion, tough luck, you and your four year old will have a very long walk every morning, and you will have to take whatever non-faith you can get, however far away it is.

I'm amazed that not liking discrimination against 4-year-olds on the grounds of their parents' religions is viewed by you as "prejudice", t4nut.

t4nut the nearest state school to me - a Catholic primary a few doors along from my home - would not even give me an application form for my son. My son eventually went to school in another borough, while kids from much, much further away across London were driven to the primary school in my road. My son was denied a place in his local state school because of religious discrimination. He was prevented. We didn't have any option at all.

Why is the application form coming from the school? Local authorities, or the odd cross London borough scheme, coordinate and provide the CAP (common application form). I suspect you were told that's were you had to go. Your son was not prevented - other people came higher up the criteria.

I try not to comment on London as its a ridiculous place, and anyone raising children there need their heads examining.

Your son was not prevented - other people came higher up the criteria.

Yes, they did come up higher on the criteria - on the basis of the religion of their parents. My son was discriminated against and directly prevented from attending this school because of my religion, t4nut.

Dress it up however you like - that's what real prejudice looks like.

Or, how about if you apply to a faith school under the faith criterion you automatically move to the bottom of any list for any non faith school. That would be fair, surely?

Bertrand this is a genius idea, and pretty workable.

I notice you ignored my second suggestion, t4nut. Here it is again. "Or, how about if you apply to a faith school under the faith criterion you automatically move to the bottom of any list for any non faith school. That would be fair, surely?"

By the way, lots of admissions policies don't include feeder schools. But I agree, proving an absence of faith background would be tricky. Although presumably people of faith would be too upright to pretend.

*Yes, they did come up higher on the criteria - on the basis of the religion of their parents. My son was discriminated against and directly prevented from attending this school because of my religion, t4nut.

Dress it up however you like - that's what real prejudice looks like.*

Sorry where did your religion come into this? Explain.

Bertrand

One assumes if you meet the criteria of the faith school as first choice you will get a place, which makes revising your criteria for any other school an exercise in irrelevance.

Not if it's oversubscribed, t4nut- there's a school near me that has more applications from people of faith than it can admit.

Sorry where did your religion come into this? Explain.

My religion came into it because I am not a Catholic - that was the reason for this state school refusing to even consider my son as a potential pupil.

That's discrimination, however you look at it.

*My religion came into it because I am not a Catholic - that was the reason for this state school refusing to even consider my son as a potential pupil.

That's discrimination, however you look at it.*

No, its not.

What did the admission criteria say?
Did you apply for a place?
What criterion were you on?
How many people were ahead of you?

t4nut

What did the admission criteria say?
The admission criteria prioritised children of Catholic parents, of a particular sort. Since this is a large city with a large Catholic population, this school had enough Catholic parents apply for their children that no non-Catholics every got in. (Would you be OK with having hospitals which had "no Catholics or Jews admitted" notices on their front desks? And if not, why not?)
After faith, the usual things (cared-for children, siblings, distance, etc) applied.

Did you apply for a place?
I could not apply for a place because they would not give me an application form, because I was not Catholic. I tried to apply for a place for my son. I was prevented from applying.

What criterion were you on?
Kind of irrelevant, since I was prevented from applying, but "living on the same road, and thus a hell of a lot nearer than all their other pupils" probably would have come into it.

How many people were ahead of you?
Well, every Catholic parent in London who has primary-aged children, apparently.

This happens all the time. My situation was not unusual at all.

It's no point, Annie. T4nut is one of those people who believe absolutely in Christian privilege.

I don't actually Bertrand - I believe if parents want a faith school they have that choice, and if they don't they have that choice.
I'm not of the faith, but I see no issue in people having and expressing one.

"I'm not of the faith, but I see no issue in people having and expressing one."

Neither do I.

What I object to is people of faith having a privileged position in society. Like having a choice of a third more tax payer funded schools than people without faith.

Trouble is, t4nut, it means in certain areas that means that some parents get a lot of choice, and other parents get no choice at all. Privilege based on religious affiliation for some, and discrimination against others.

(And I haven't even mentioned yet what a stupid idea it is to bring children up only mixing with kids of their own faith, when they are living in a multi-faith community. What a way to stoke up trouble for the future, eh.)

I'm not of the faith, but I see no issue in people having and expressing one.

Neither am I but the state should not be funding religious discrimination.

Change religion for ethnicity and see what it looks like then.

I believe if parents want a faith school they have that choice, and if they don't they have that choice

Then you are very naïve!

There are many who want a faith school but don't have that choice because they can't get into one.

There are also many who don't want a faith school but don't have that choice because the only school they are offered, or the only school that is within reasonable travelling distance, is a faith school.

This is because the notion of "choice" in education is a myth - there aren't enough surplus places for everyone to have a choice between a faith school of their own particular brand and a non-faith school, no more than there are enough surplus places for everyone to "choose" a school with a particular specialism or strength.

Since 1996, surpluses have been systematically reduced from an average of 15% nationwide in order to save costs. The National Audit Office now recommends a surplus of at least 5-10% but several Local Authorities have a surplus of zero, and in fact some have a projected deficit of places, particularly in London.

*Neither am I but the state should not be funding religious discrimination.

Change religion for ethnicity and see what it looks like then.*

Except it isn't. And we've had that strawman silliness above already.