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Appalling reading advice for parents and TAs

274 replies

Feenie · 30/08/2016 09:22

This document is being flagged up in lots of the teaching pages i've liked on Facebook:

literacyforpleasure.wordpress.com/ta-guide-to-listening-to-reading-making-comments/

It's terrible, full of recommendations to encourage children to guess. Really depressed at the number of teachers tagging others to flag it as 'useful'. It really, really isn't.

If you're starting as a reading volunteer in September, I hope you're not given anything like this. Any advice encouraging children to guess words is really poor and awful practice.

If a child is 'stuck', encourage them to look at the sounds and blend - or if they're really stuck, give them the word and come back to it later. Feedback to the teacher on the sound they couldn't recognise is fabulous.

And thank you for volunteering in the first place - your help is invaluable and much appreciated.

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FATEdestiny · 30/08/2016 22:25

mrz (sorry)

Feenie · 30/08/2016 22:26

Surely, as a Science teacher, you are interested in up to date brain research though?

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mrz · 30/08/2016 22:26

Prh in the Dehaene research the adult subjects were illiterate not just poor readers

http://www.spelfabet.com.au/2015/10/how-literacy-transforms-the-human-brain/

mrz · 30/08/2016 22:28

No FATEdestiny I wasn't posting links to you ...that would be pointless

FATEdestiny · 30/08/2016 22:30

I don't minimise the problems of any struggling reader, of any age fee. I just disagree with you.

FATEdestiny · 30/08/2016 22:33

Surely, as a Science teacher, you are interested in up to date brain research though?

Nowhere close to my field of expertise Hmm

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 30/08/2016 22:35

I skim read, skip bits and guess at words all the time.

I've skipped the rest of the thread, but the difference between you and the children we're talking about is that presumably if you need to you can read accurately and in dept to get the info you are after.

The children being taught these techniques as reading skills end up only ever being able to skim, scan and get the gist of a text. And it does affect the rest of their education because being able to read a text book or passage in depth or an exam question accurately is important if you want to get good results. If the really important info in a maths question is a word you can't read so just skip then you're fucked.

Feenie · 30/08/2016 22:39

Why exactly do.you think your struggling KS3 readers cannot read, and how do you help them?

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FATEdestiny · 30/08/2016 22:40

I don't dispute that the rigorous teaching of phonics, decoding and blending sounds is central to learning to read.

Feenie · 30/08/2016 22:43

But you encourage your struggling readers to skip, skim and guess words alongside?

You didn't answer why you thought they struggled - and what you do about it?

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sandbagsatdawn · 30/08/2016 22:46

Not read all of this but it's pointless to advocate any one method of reading to the exclusion of others. You cannot decode many words in English so you must lead to sightread them. Equally you can't know and sightread every word in the language so you need to having a decoding strategy for words you don't know. Reading is about comprehension of a text not just individual words. Using picture clues, and logical guesswork (a word that makes sense in context) therefore are valid ways for a learner to read more fluently. You need ALL the different skills to read effectively.

user789653241 · 30/08/2016 22:48

Mrz's link to "How the brain learns to read -Dehaene" is a you tube video, you don't need to read it.

It was very interesting. Thanks mrz.

QuackDuckQuack · 30/08/2016 22:50

I'm curious. If children shouldn't be using context to guess words, wouldn't it be better not to include pictures that support guessing by providing context? After all, children do need to be able to read text without pictures eventually. All of the early reading books that DD1 has taken home do have pictures on the same page as the writing. Presumably this is to add interest. How do pictures fit in with the 'no guessing' approach?

FATEdestiny · 30/08/2016 22:52

Calm down fee, your post wasn't there as I was writing the last post. I wasn't ignoring you

Right now, they only people I'm teaching to read are my DD11, DS10 (reluctant reader), DS6 and DD2. I'm a SAHM

m0therofdragons · 30/08/2016 22:54

Looking for clues in the text around a word you don't know is surely a useful skill when it comes to literacy and you're faced with untranslated Chaucer?
Anyway, I think children often have different way of learning and what works for one isn't necessarily what works for another. The most important thing imo is to develop an enjoyment in reading and if that means skipping a few words now and then then I can see that's okay. I'm not an expert. The author has backed it up with evidence. If phonics was the perfect way then why do we still have dc in ks2 who can't read well?

Feenie · 30/08/2016 22:54

Not read all of this

Really suggest you do - your points have been covered extensively.

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user789653241 · 30/08/2016 22:59

"If phonics was the perfect way then why do we still have dc in ks2 who can't read well?"

.... poor phonics teaching....?

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 30/08/2016 23:01

Pictures can add information to the story. They don't have to give a clue to exactly what the sentence below says but add to it.

However, many of the books that are still out there do have pictures that give clues to the text because they were written before the searchlights strategies were debunked and designed that way.

IME a child wouldn't naturally use pictures as a strategy for decoding. They are either taught to do that or have been given a text that's so far above the level of their phonic ability that they resort to any strategy they can grab hold of.

FATEdestiny · 30/08/2016 23:01

it's pointless to advocate any one method of reading to the exclusion of others....

wouldn't it be better not to include pictures that support guessing by providing context?...

Looking for clues in the text around a word you don't know is surely a useful skill when it comes to literacy...

................................................

Three different posts ^

It really isn't the accepted way to teach reading. The accepted way is to only teach phonics.

This discussion will forever go in circles because my experience is different to current best practice.

Feenie · 30/08/2016 23:02

Calm down fee, your post wasn't there as I was writing the last post. I wasn't ignoring you

How unbearably patronising. And yet you still seem unable to answer the questions.

When you were teaching, what did you think were the barriers to reading for your KS3 readers - and did you encourage them to skim, skip and guess?

If phonics was the perfect way then why do we still have dc in ks2 who can't read well?

In schools where phonics is taught exclusively, the success is around 96%-99%. We still have children in KS2 and KS3 who can't read well because they're in schools where they haven't been taught to.decide effectively and rely on guessing/skipping words because they've been taught that is fine.

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mrz · 30/08/2016 23:06

There's very little enjoyment in reading if you struggle to read the words and if you can't read the words then understanding is severely compromised.

Feenie · 30/08/2016 23:08

Still unwilling/unable to give practical advice to how to either diagnose or help your poor KS3 readers then, FATEdestiny.

Unwilling to read any research, any links - no interest shown in helping struggling children at all actually.

I have no idea what your motivation is on this thread.

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MrEBear · 30/08/2016 23:08

Quack I'm guessing that the pictures are meant to add interest / fill the page up. From what I have seen early readers probably only really have a paragraph of text.

There certainly comes a point when lack of reading skills hinder ability to pass exams. I have a degree, but went via a college. I have a handful of O levels (GCSEs) and failed my Highers (A-levels).

DS has just started P1, (Reception). I was concerned a year ago about mixed reading methods and tried to teach him myself but got as far as knowing all his letters but not grams (two letters together if I have the right word) then I started to worry he would be bored in school. However he has came home with a tub with flash cards, a, at, the. To be taught by sight, "a" he already knows doesn't appear any different to the sound, "at" to me should be taught as the two sounds a/t, "the" is more difficult - teach whole.

Anybody any ideas if I am doing right or wrong?

lit4pleasure · 30/08/2016 23:11

From the off: I'm not and nor do I ever claim to be saying that phonics should be removed as a good method for reading unknown words, in fact it should and will be done by children regularly.

However, I am concerned by the philosophical view towards reading by some respondents. It is my believe that reading is about bringing meaning to a text and using that meaning to get meaning from the text. I truly believe that this is what makes reading such a wonderful activity.

This bringing of meaning can include their phonic knowledge, certainly. Children are also welcomed to bring their knowledge of the world, or other texts they've read and their sophisticated knowledge (from baby onwards) of how typical sentences are constructed - which Chomsky calls 'innate grammar'.

I guess my concern lies with the fact that children could grow up to believe that reading is very much related to just decoding. To just pronouncing words properly. I say this because if that's what they spend most of their early reading experiences doing, (let's not forget the phonic test places huge pressures on teachers to teach in such a way - I'm not blaming them though - its a tricky situation) However, children will have no choice but to come to this conclusion. Personally, I just find this a sad thought.

Reading really isn't a one way process. We aren't passive when we read. There is an exchange between writer and reading. Meaning is exchanged throughout. We bring our experiences and understandings and predictions to a text and we receive a lot in return too.

If we can remember that there is an exchange of meaning involved in reading then comprehension strategies like the ones I've just suggested, that other people say they have used with their children and use themselves, are perfectly legitimate.

We can't underestimate children. We shouldn't say that you're not able to read like I can because I'm an adult. Why hide our legitimate ways of reading from children who are looking to become readers just like us?

The fact is that within about half a second or less, children begin to forget some of the details of a sentence. Words take on specific meanings as they transact with one another on the page together – thus phonics, at times, due to its time consuming nature, can damage this process. Meaning is not in the text or words themselves but in the reader’s interpretations and of course phonics can make no contribution to this. So meaning emerges as a child engages with a whole text in context. – phonics can be a helpful friend to this process.

Phonics, when relied upon to much, can be an issue when dealing with single words which hold multiple meanings. Children need to use the other strategies I've spoken about the solve which option is the right one. Then of course you have many phonic rules which aren't rules. These words can be a nightmare for children if they rely heavily on phonics to aid their meaning-making process. There are a great many phonic rules which have more cases against the rule than for it - more than you would realise! (see my references at the bottom for details).

According to Frank Smith, reading makes you good at phonics, rather than phonics makes you good at reading. There is a lot to be said here. If we consider the amount of time children are away from books, learning phonic rules which are sometimes not always phonic rules. If they are spending time away from books too often, this can't be helpful to learning to read. Again, I'm not saying children should have no instruction in learning to read - of course they should. It just needs to be balanced (and there is evidence for this too - again, see below for link). I say this because we are seeing a steady decline in children reading for pleasure (NUT, 2016, The National Endowment Of The Arts, 2007). Some methods in school are turning children off reading.

In relation to the number of points made about education research and evidence. This is fine. I myself use a great deal of references to support my written piece about how children learn to read. However, laboratory study and observing narrow criteria won't always give us a holistic view of what goes on during reading, particularly over the long term. Reading is too complex to be regarded as 'habit-learning' alone. Children shouldn't be expected to progress from one decontextualised chunk to another until seen as competent. A behaviouristic approach to reading trivialises both language and learning. It is difficult to study meaningful learning under laboratory conditions. Unless you don't believe reading to be an exchange of meaning between reader and author, then you may well disagree at this point. In my view, children learn to read most when they are engaged in and observing activities which naturally involve the act of reading.

It’s important to remember too what Frank Smith articulates, which is: ‘in an evidence oriented enterprise, those who control the evidence-gathering, control the entire enterprise'. Presently, that would be major publishing houses (producing largely phonics material for schools) and the exam companies who received around £328m in the decade ending 2012. Respected Doctor of Language Reading, Ken Goodman states clearly that: ‘it’s a political campaign, tightly controlled, carefully manipulated, and [that] most of the players don’t even know they’re being used’.

I hope teachers are looking to nurture their students in an environment that convinces them they might want to read a book. I’ve seen too many proficient decoders, children who perform extremely well on standardised tests but are never willingly pick up a book. This is because they have mastered an incomplete system, one they find lacking in marvel or mystery.

In conclusion, it is reasonable to conclude that phonetic cueing can act as an aid to reading. Meaning is the beginning and the end of reading, but the means as well. The fact children who have been exposed to a solely phonics approach learn to read does not necessarily mean that they learned to read because of the approach, though people unaware of the nature of the reading process and what is involved in learning to read are of course inclined to make this assumption. ‘What works is not always phonics, and, in fact, for young children, what works best in reading may seldom be intensive phonic instruction’ (Carbo).

As people's anecdotes on here have laid claim, the reality is that we have children who: do not need phonics to become good readers, children who become good readers despite phonics and children who are also unable to master phonics and so don’t become good readers.

Reading involves learning to bring one’s own experiences, feelings and knowledge to the task of transacting with a text, and it involves learning to use and coordinate all three language curing systems: syntactic, semantic and grapho/phonemic.

I have to say I don't have such a distrust of a child’s learning abilities. ‘Children are small; their minds are not.’ – Glenda Bissex

Children demonstrate all the time their power to abstract, hypothesise, construct and revise. Given this view of children, surely one role of reading instruction is to affirm each child’s inner teacher. When reading is taught with emphasis on meaning – context cues can become the dominant force and are the closest cues related to the actual purpose of reading, that of comprehending; a balanced approach encourages rather than thwarts the acquisition of good reading strategies. After all it is comprehending that makes an independent and life-long reader.

As a side note, I would like to say that there is evidence for what I discuss here, despite some members trying to claim that there isn't. References can be viewed at the bottom of this article -> goo.gl/9JvqGT. They are references from a wide variety of sources, many from contemporary evidence-based research, but not exclusively.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 30/08/2016 23:15

Anyway, I think children often have different way of learning and what works for one isn't necessarily what works for another.

At the risk of banging my head against a brick wall on another phonics thread. Phonics is not a method of teaching reading, it's the core skill you need in order to read. There might be different methods to teach the subskills involved, some of which will work better for some children than others but whatever you do still need to teach children those subskills and to use them as the prime method for reading the words on the page.

Nobody looks at the child that struggles with counting to 10 and decides not to bother teaching it because some children don't learn that way. The same applies to blending and segmenting.