Second property and school catchment: fraudolent?

[thelmafitzgerald]

Please don't flame me, I am just trying to understand how the school catchment system works in the UK as I am from a European country where the system is completely different!

This is the scenario:

Family with small DC owns two properties, a 2 bedroom flat that is where the family currently lives and a one bedroom flat that is technically empty (not rented out).

2 bed flat is in a deprived area with really bad schools, while the one bed flat is in a really nice affluent area with outstanding schools.

Would it be fraudolent or illegal according to the UK system and law if the family moved into the one bed flat for a while before and after the DC started school in order to secure a place in outstanding school in affluent area? Let's say if the family actually lived in the one bed property for 6 months?

So essentially my question is: can a second property lawfully be used in terms of school catchment?

Many thanks!

titchy it is not that easy.

The Westminster property is legally owned by DH but it was bought by and for PILs to have a place when they visit us in London. While PILs would be happy for us to move in there for a while in order to potentially secure a place at the local school, it is not up to us to sell the property and re-invest the money somewhere else.

It is theirs really, just DH's name is on the deeds and bills because we live in the UK and PILs don't.

I used to live in Newham and moved away so my dc didn't have to go to any of the secondary schools there. OP do what's best for your dc.

Aside from the legalities, you would need to consider the commute from Newham to Westminster every day. It will be a nightmare. Think also about friendships, play dates etc.

There are some very good schools in Newham, have you been to look round any? It's madness to go for a school on an Outstanding Ofsted report alone. You may find you like one of your local schools more.

"Aside from the legalities, you would need to consider the commute from Newham to Westminster every day. It will be a nightmare. Think also about friendships, play dates etc."

Agree - how would you manage this?

Based on what OP says on latest post, this sounds definitely fraudulent application to me? Since the property isn't really theirs?

Agree that there are some top primaries in Newham. Really investigate.

We lost out on our preferred school because so many people did this. The admissions guy in the council was very direct and told me that if people are genuinely living at the application address from before the date they fill in the forms and are still there when the places are offered and accepted there's not much they can do if they change their home address on the first day of term. He told me there was a roaring trade in 6 month rentals at about 5 times the market rate. He said that what they can (and do) do IF theres a complaint during the admissions process is to confirm that people have actually been living at that property (they see the same addresses year on year) so they might do a home visit to check for occupancy etc and ask for utility bills to check the consumption. Beyond that, his point was that people are entitled to move house and it isn't for him to question why someone lived in a particular home for 6 months or a year and then moved.
We lost out, but I didn't blame the parents, I blamed the system (I can literally see the back of the school 50 yards away from my bedroom window and we were 12m further than the final place offered despite having lived here for a decade).
A Mum I knew from nursery whose child did get a place (and then immediately moved away) told me that not one of the non-siblings in that intake still lived in the borough by Christmas. None of them will have any problem getting a sibling place for subsequent children. They have changed the system somewhat since, and now have a borough wide lottery, but I think the most obvious thing they could do is to not offer sibling places to people who have moved out of area.
Obviously you need to check the individual admissions criteria of each school - whether there's a sibling policy (if relevant).
If I were you I would ensure that I lived fully in the second property for a reasonable period - maybe the full year from the September the application period opens to when your child starts school, even if it's a squash. I think people saying you should sell the other are being ridiculous - I assume you would be going private if money were no object - although I would probably rent the second flat out if I were you to make it very clear you are not living between the two.
Beyond that I don't think anyone can expect people to hold themselves to higher standards than the rules demand. Lots of people move to a particular area because the schools are good and then move further out as their family grows. People move home for all sorts of reasons.

The number of fraudulent applications discovered and offers subsequently withdrawn is low. However OP needs to think about the number discovered BEFORE offers are made - this will be much higher.

Given the additional information the Westminster flat would clearly be a fraudulent application, and yes the logistics of playmates and the journey a nightmare for a small child.

Look round the schools in Newham, not just their OFSTED reports, and if you're genuinely not happy move.

I might be from the same 'European' country as you based on your MN name and I've experienced the same horror you are probably experiencing when you look at the options available. I'm pretty sure you'll find that kids in school in Westminster are commuting from all over. I've also worked in schools both at home and here and bad state schools really are much worse here. Expectations and standards are slowly improving, but are far, far lower, and I'm incredibly cynical of the league tables and the ofsted ratings having worked in an 'outstanding' school I wouldn't send a cat to.
We ended up going private in the end and doing a fairly long commute. If DH's parents don't mind using the Newham property for a year I'd make the move. It might be worth actually naming them on the council tax and utilities in the 2 bed though if that were possible?
Just one thing, I don't know if you are considering switching to the private system at some stage? If not then you are doing absolutely the right thing by doing whatever you have to do to get your child into the best school you can. If you are however, then make sure you really understand the system and the entrance exams at 7, 11 and 13 and are prepared for the extra work it will take for all but the very brightest state educated kids to compete with the highly focussed hothousing kids get in private schools here.

"I think people saying you should sell the other are being ridiculous"

It's to do with if OP qualifies; many boroughs will or may investigate if a parent owns two properties, especially if close enough together to feasibly commute to school (ie not Liverpool and Bournemouth).

I don't think it matters whether DH's parents put up the money for the Westminster flat as long as the family legitimately lives there .

"Aside from the legalities, you would need to consider the commute from Newham to Westminster every day. It will be a nightmare. Think also about friendships, play dates etc."

My job is in Westminster and quite close to the one bedroom flat, so I think that would help as I commute there every day anyway.

@tiggytape OP is entitled to move her family's permanent habitual residence lock stock and barrel into a property owned by her husband and to apply for schools in the area. Many people move house after they have secured a school place for their child. She is equally entitled to move back to the other flat at a later date. What she is not entitled to do is to live in both flats or to pretend to live in one while she lives in the other. She is not allowed to spend 2 weeks in one and call it her home or to send her child to live with Granny who lives nearer a better school. For tax, for school application and for most other things it would be very difficult to argue that a family resident in Westminster for a year should be denied a school place there because they used to live in Newham. Do I think people should be forced to change school at the end of key stage if their home has moved? That siblings should be denied if the family has moved? Yes I do, but at the moment those are not the rules.

"Simple checks via the council tax system...."

But these are not made as a matter of course. Documentation is accepted as produced. They are made if there's a suspicion of fraud. Why would there be in this case?

I agree with Emmaroos that the system is deeply flawed and unfair. It actually makes my blood boil to see as much manoeuvring around admissions as I do but if people are acting within the existing rules then there's no point berating them.

Llhj and Emmaroos, it doesn't matter what seems fair or common sense - what matters is Westminster's rules, under which it's likely OP's newham address would be used, meaning she wouldn't get a Westminster place and would get a less desirable newham place if she hadn't put any schools there down.

0.001% of offers withdrawn in 2015

Thank you for highlighting the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. 0.001% of offers withdrawn would amount to just 2 offers withdrawn across all of London. I can name a council in London that withdrew more offers than that on its own in 2015 and I know it isn't the only council that withdrew offers. The figure is below 1% but it is not that low.

But, as Tiggytape says, if councils are running proper checks most fraud will be caught before any offer is made. When an offer is withdrawn it is usually because the council's own investigations did not reveal anything but information has been received after offers went out.

But these are not made as a matter of course

Again displaying your lack of knowledge. Most councils do run them as a matter of course. Indeed, many councils have automated this process. With most applications now being made online it is not difficult to run automated checks. It is partly due to such checks that the number of investigations into possible fraudulent applications trebled from 2013 to 2015.

Indeed, Tiggy.

OP, would you want to sell your newham flat, live in the Westminster place for a year or so, saving mortgage payments (I assume), then buy again? Do you have just one child?

You might as well listen to tiggy and prh. They are school admissions experts with many years of contributions to Mumsnet discussions on this subject behind them.

Emmaroos - the situation in your borough sounds absolutely horrific. I live in a place with absurdly over-subscribed schools. It is shameful what middle class and well resourced people are prepared to do to bend the rules.

JacquettaWoodville
I think you are naive if you don't understand that this is how school entry has become for the most desirable state schools across London.
People embrace religions they don't believe in a jot and they move house. Why? Because at the moment those are the rules.
And suggesting it's just middle class people is to almost imply that working class people are stupid which they are not - they may not have the cash to move house, but plenty of them know that a baptism followed by getting their attendance card stamped at Sunday service for 3 weeks out of 4 for 4 years (I kid you not) will get their children into the other good school near us.
If OP moves into a home owned by her DP in the months before the application and lives there fully and permanently throughout the application process then her application is not fraudulent. If she pretends to live there or lives there temporarily then it is.
Unless her particular school has a specific policy of asking enrolled attending students to leave if their parents move house then it would not be appropriate for a school to allow one family to move house but not another. Apparently it's pretty common for couples to 'separate' during the admissions process too and 'reconcile' afterwards.
That is what I was advised by my borough which has an almost identical statement on their website. I directly asked how long you would have to live in a house for it to be accepted as permanent and I was told that many of the tenancies run for 6 months and that they had never challenged this, but that for certainty a year would be "very hard to question". The easiest thing would be for OP to contact Westminster and ask the same question - She works in and is moving to live in Westminster soon and in due course will be applying for a school place for her child. She has read the information that it needs to be her permanent home and wants to be sure that if they plan a future move (this is unlikely to be their final family home) that they don't risk having her child's school place withdrawn. How long must they reside there?
I didn't get a school place for my child in a school that I would have been comfortable with in my area because I was naive and I assumed that councils expected people to follow the underlying spirit of the rules.
They don't.
They expect people to follow the rules.
OP should follow the rules. No more.
I'd love to know how many children you think have been asked to leave the school they attend on the basis of 'fraudulent' applications when their parents have genuinely resided at the address they applied from throughout the whole process? Not many I bet unless it is a general policy that people move schools if they move out of borough.
I agree that the rules are rubbish - we got shafted. I don't see why OP should too.
Nobody (including OP) knows right now where her next move might be after living in Westminster for the year. It might naturally be time to sell the Newham flat and move on by that stage.

If OP moves into a home owned by her DP in the months before the application and lives there fully and permanently throughout the application process then her application is not fraudulent

You cannot make that as a definitive statement. It depends on the rules laid down by the relevant LA. Tiggytape has quoted Westminster's rules which make it clear that this behaviour would be regarded as fraudulent.

Unless her particular school has a specific policy of asking enrolled attending students to leave if their parents move house then it would not be appropriate for a school to allow one family to move house but not another

A school cannot remove a place simply because someone moves. However, an place can be taken away if the application was fraudulent or deliberately misleading. If parents move into a home for the period of the application process with the intention of moving out as soon as they get a place at their desired school any place that is offered can be removed.

Apparently it's pretty common for couples to 'separate' during the admissions process too and 'reconcile' afterwards

Many LAs have become wise to that move and are clamping down on that as well.

I'd love to know how many children you think have been asked to leave the school they attend on the basis of 'fraudulent' applications when their parents have genuinely resided at the address they applied from throughout the whole process

Several hundred every year. And that isn't something I think. That is something I know.

Well not in my borough - as I said before, they told me 6 months was was fine. And it's a very over subscribed borough and huge numbers of appeals are taken.
It's just unfortunate I was asking from the other direction.
If I were OP I'd ask the question of Westminster. I imagine most people don't intend to stay in the house they live in when DC1 is 3 forever. You can't accuse someone of fraud for not living somewhere permanently if you are not prepared to define what you consider to be permanent.
I asked and my borough said 6 months-1 year and specifically from start to finish of the application process.
It comes down to what the council considers 'permanent - 6 months? I year? 2 years?
You do know that if OP's family were forced to move to the Westminster flat for a year because PIL had a reason to move into the 2 bed flat (took over the council tax, paid the bills etc) or of OP's family were short of cash so they rented the Newham flat out, and the family then tried to make an application for one of the amazing schools people mentioned in Newham they would be laughed at and told they weren't eligible. Saying "but I might move back to Newham next year" would be considered completely irrelevant.