Can anyone help - ds 2 years behind.

[WheresMaHairyToe]

Long, sorry!

DS2 has above average IQ, but terrible difficulty with reading/ phonics.
He has SEN but is only going on the assessment pathway now as he enters P4 (y3) So not sure what the actual problems are. There are definitely auditory processing difficulties - he can't hear the difference between the vowels, hears "th" as "f" for example.
Can anyone recommend a good reading scheme that doesn't use phonics? He's very visual and I think he may be better off learning this way. The school uses a very one -size-fits-all linguistic phonic programme, and it is not working for him.
As an example, he made a sign for our garden independently:
"Nt alwdo on graase." (not allowed on the grass.)
He says he can't read, and his self esteem is in tatters. Our house is coming down with books and he has been read to most days of his life, although he always chooses the same two or three books (mostly Dr. Seuss or other rhyming stories.)
His attention in school is poor, so I plan to request more differentiation - clearly structured work, a visual schedule and possibly a work station to reduce distractions.
Professionals are suggesting ADD or ASD. But diagnosis (and hence support) could be 2 years off. (His older brother has HFA and taught himself to read independently of school from the Guinness book of records - phonics wasn't great for him either! At 11 he never stops reading! dd is 13 and phonics worked beautifully for her, I don't have an issue with the system per se.)
Any suggestions? Ty

I understand what you are saying Fuckingmoles , but if you read some of mrz's past post, you can see why she isn't that kind of teacher, who ignores needs of children.

No Irvine dyslexia isn't a condition mrz doesn't believe in its a label and umbrella term that doesn't have an agreed definition and on its own is pretty useless. (It's also vastly overused by people not qualified to make a diagnosis)

No - I am certain she is an excellent, caring and extremely knowledgable teacher and I apologise if I have given the impression that I think otherwise.

So how does see ay tea help children read or spell ? It doesn't!

Mrz - I agree that it is an umbrella term although the LA and organisations such as PATOSS use this definition.

"Dyslexia is a learning difficulty that primarily affects the skills involved in accurate and fluent word reading and spelling. - Characteristic features of dyslexia are difficulties in phonological awareness, verbal memory and verbal processing speed."

Dyslexia is an umbrella term in the same way that ASD is an umbrella term (DSM-5, folds together previously disparate diagnoses Autism Disorder, Asperger's Disorder, Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS), and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder into one umbrella term: Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)) . Are you arguing that we should dismiss ASD as a diagnosis for similar reasons and not provide help and support that meets a particular child's needs?

If we understand where individual strengths and weaknesses lie - intervention can be tailored to meet their needs and that is why diagnosis by a suitable qualified professional is beneficial. Many children with literacy difficulties have overlapping needs and benefit from similar teaching methods (phonics based) but my focus for a child with dyslexia may be different from a child with Specific Language Impairment and different again for a child with Down's Syndrome.

http://www.spelfabet.com.au/2014/01/renaming-letters/

I agree with mrz that teaching letter names before a child who is struggling has mastered the sounds associated with single letters, digraphs and trigraphs (and tetragraphs) is not helpful. It seems to me that it just leads to cognitive overload as the child has to determine whether to use letter names or sounds when working out what a word 'says'. This might be fine for children who grasp the principles of phonics easily but not for those who struggle, such as the OP's son.

The same applies to whole word learning; it is far easier to recall the individual letter/sound correspondences and blend them to produce a word than it is to memorise the whole letter sequence within discrete words. The latter is somewhat akin to being asked to memorise pages of phone numbers...

My view is that one should keep the teaching as simple as possible; not introduce any information which is irrelevant to working out what an unfamiliar word 'says' or anything which places an excessive load on memory.

he sounds very dyslexic, my dd13 has just got to grips with some reading using Read Write Inc in her support for learning class!

If your in Scotland you need to tell the school very often he needs to see the Educational Pyschologist, has he tried coloured overlays?

He is probably not reading the Dr Seuss books he has probably memorised them!

Audio books might benefit him too.

Why are other posters saying he needs more phonics not less, phonics being pushed on my dd actually made her worse and now will only write phonetically which her SFL team are trying to undo now shes in high school!

I also agree that letter-sound correspondences should be taught first in reception before letter names but for older children this is not practical. This learner is already using a mixture of letter names and sounds when decoding - this is a common error amongst the children I teach as they do not understand the difference.

He has about 10-12 words he can read/ write without difficulty - his name, Mummy, and some high frequency words. Looking at Jolly Phonics book 1 last night, he can do CVC words like "mud" "lip" etc with about 60% accuracy.
Going through the sounds when he named them I asked what the sound was -for "a" he said "ant." We segmented that and he appeared to understand that the sound was "a." This morning back to naming. I know it's going to take time!
Primary teachers, what do you think it is reasonable to request as support in school? His test scores from last year will qualify him for 40 mins per week small group withdrawal. He's getting 20 mins per week 1-1 behaviour support for 6 weeks from external agency too.

this is a common error amongst the children I teach as they do not understand the difference.

The most common reason children struggle ...they haven't been taught what they need in order to succeed .

As the mother of as child with ASD I'd be very happy if they abandoned an imprecise label and actually identified his actual difficulties .

People are saying phonics because all the evidence shows that is the most effective strategy for reading and spelling. We all spell phonetically because that's how written language works ...I think you mean your child isn't using the correct alternative representation for sounds. Has anyone taught her?

She was taught the curriculum the same as everyone else starting with jolly phonics in P1, every other child managed to start to write proper words and sentences and she writes everything phonetically and can only read words spelt phonetically.

It has been recommended now on her ABLE plan that she actually doesn't read at all for the time being and she has to use audio books at home and is told everything verbally in class and occasionally has a reader in class.

She was taught the curriculum the same as everyone else starting with jolly phonics in P1, every other child managed to start to write proper words and sentences and she writes everything phonetically and can only read words spelt phonetically.

Since all words are spelt phonetically that's a good start ...

It has been recommended now on her ABLE plan that she actually doesn't read at all for the time being and she has to use audio books at home and is told everything verbally in class and occasionally has a reader in class

I'd be very worried if that was suggested for my child.

I am not a British, we learned English via no phonics route. Basically, we learned new words every week, we learned how the word was sound first( the one you can still see in dictionary, like /bəˈnɑː.nə/ for banana), then spell it, memorize it. Then you have to revise, read books etc. to reinforce it. I think for simple English, this way is fine. It only gets difficult when I encounter very long words later on, like medical words etc. When I first arrived UK, I could read simple teenager books. I couldn’t sound out a new word, I had to check the dictionary to find out how to pronounce it and then remember how to spell it. Then I found out the phonics way when my DC learn it at school. I have learned some now, this certainly makes learning new words fast, and I can clearly see the link between the sound and the word now.
If someone can grasp phonics quickly, that certainly would help. But if someone can’t , I think it is important get him to remember some high frequency first, then he can enjoy reading. Like OP’s DS, if OP help him to remember some words each week, he will soon store enough words to read simple books, which in return would improve his vocabulary.

http://www.thelearningzoo.co.uk/2015/02/10/the-attainment-gap-what-about-the-teaching-gap/

I'd be very worried if that was suggested for my child

Why? Reading was making her anxious and frustrated, they are trying to find other ways of helping her understand reading and writing, to find another approach and taking the pressure off her for a bit seems to be working, the damage done to her and me being ignored at primary school is enormous, she has had a pupil support officer, in S1 was only 4 days a week in school and one day at outdoor activities to get her away from the classroom setting. Her high school have spent the last year trying to unravel the mess that primary done to her, 7 years of being told 'your being lazy' or 'one day it will all fall into place' destroyed her.

She started S2 yesterday and they will slowly be introducing new ways of learning for her, she is mostly in a class of 8 with one teacher and 2 support staff!

As for her writing I will try and find one of her old books, she probably binned them, and take a picture of it, she does not understand phonics at all...after 7 years of them being forced on her!

I'd want my child supported to learn rather than handicapped by poor practice.

http://www.naeyc.org/yc/files/yc/file/201503/YC0315BlockOnline.pdf

Of course they are supporting her to learn but before they can get her to start achieving they need to break down the barriers that she has put up against sitting behind a desk and learning, she is highly intelligent, she is verbally beyond her years she won an award in one of the practical subjects last year, she even finished the RWI in her SfL class but you put her in a English/maths/French/social subject class and she cannot cope she is so mentally scarred by being forced to sit and being told she can do it and shes just being lazy.

This year they will introduce her to computer programmes and she will be given a laptop and tablet type thing, they are not just not teaching her they are just doing at a pace that she is comfortable with.

Since she has left primary school that school has changed their practices towards children with potential learning difficulties after we put in a formal complaint, no child should leave primary school unable to read or write it is utterly heartbreaking to see your child in the mess my dd was in by the time she left.

I agree no child should leave primary school unable to read and it sounds from what you write as if your child has been badly let down by poor practice.

Many reading/learning difficulties are caused by poor teaching ...dyspedagogia rather than dyslexia.

Rose, why did she have to leave primary without being able to read?
Wasn't there any help?
Did you consider moving her if it wasn't working at all at her school?
I just find it difficult to understand that their needs has never been met, even if you knew the problem existed, and new school can see it clearly.

Because the school wouldn't believe there was anything wrong with her, we had to fight to get help and by the time we got someone to listen it was too late to put things in place, we started thinking something wasn't quite right in P4 and it was half way through P7, when she had a complete meltdown in class and I was called in because of her behaviour, that someone listened, she had the same teacher P6 & P7 and she wouldn't/didn't want to deal with it...she doesn't have a job now btw!

I don't know if moving school would have been any better as now that I know the system better, in Scottish primary schools they seem to try and avoid getting help and leaving it to high school, but as I said things have certainly changed at her old primary school.

That sound horrible, hope she gets proper help now on.