Moving to neighboring London borough, renting second home - WWYD?

[f1ddlesticks]

We currently live in an area in London we love, but it's expensive and the flat we own is tiny (1.5 bed, second DC due in Nov). There's a mix of local state primaries, some good some less so - all around 90%+ ESL (not a mix of languages, the area is almost entirely Bengali). For various financial reasons we can't sell our flat for another couple of years, end of 2018.

So we're considering renting our flat out, and moving to a neighboring, cheaper borough to a rented house (what we get in rent would cover the cost of a bigger place there, and we would actually have space to breathe!) in time for DD to apply and start school in Sept 2018. We would then sell the flat as soon as we could and attempt to buy something within the catchment of the school she gets a place at, as we'd want 2nd DC to go there too. We're certainly not looking to cheat the system - it's just our current home is far from ideal.

Would this technically be allowed in terms of admissions? Would you do the same? The alternative is to stay in the tiny flat, get DD into a local school, then move and do an in-year admission for Year 1/2 dep on timings, once we've bought in the area. Would you then attempt to rent nearest the best school you could - if you were going to rent somewhere anyway? I do also worry about the upheaval of moving school for her a year in though.

Thanks - it's driving me a bit crazy trying to work out what to do!

Then why do I know people who have done this with zero problem at all? They moved lock, stock and barrel into their new home. They didn't do it for school places, they would have been fine where they were. They did it because they needed a bigger place and couldn't find anywhere to buy at that time (plus they knew there would be a good chance they'd be able to buy the house they rented).

Other than paying a mortgage on their flat, every single other thing was registered at their new address. They weren't on the electoral role at their owned flat, didn't pay council tax there, all bank stuff, driving licence etc at the new rented house.

So, no, I'm not incorrect.

River, how far apart were the two locations?

Anyway, OP has the right idea in asking. Be aware, OP, that policy may change Even If you get a favourable answer now.

Look closely at stamp duty too. You will need to change your mortgage if renting out your current flat.

This is from Camden Admissions River:

'If we find that a school place was obtained using a false address we will withdraw our offer, even after the child has started school, and give it to the child who was entitled to the place. We consider every school place obtained through deception denies another child their legitimate place.

We will not accept a temporary address if you still have a property that was previously used as a home address, nor will we accept a temporary address used solely or mainly to obtain a school place. You may be asked to supply additional information to explain why you are not able to use your permanent address.'

Thanks everyone for your advise and experiences... Appreciate all the input. There's a lot to think about!

It's not a false address though
Op, you're right to ask, but they are your circumstances, you can't be wrong

Do you know if the schools are over subscribed?

You can't be wrong... Don't be bloody ridiculous, dolly

The schools vary - some over, some undersubscribed. Haven't pinpointed an exact area as such, though all parts we're interested in would be within a mile or so of each other.

To be honest, what this thread has highlighted is the complexity and uncertainty of doing something like this - naively (because we're not trying to pull a fast one) I'd presumed there'd be no issue. Considering also the expense of moving and potential loss of money via capital gains makes it a less appealing option.

I'll definitely ask the LAs at the time we're able to move, but despite the shortcomings of the flat we live in, at least we know the area and which schools are decent (by reputation at least). All feels a bit more straightforward. Who knows what'll hapoen to the property market or our circumstances in 2-3 years time? In a sense having such an open-ended option removed makes it easier to make the best of what we have already - IYKWIM?

Sorry Polaroids, but that simply isn't true of all boroughs! In my borough of Hackney, the Learning Trust actually advised close friends of mine to move to a rental (and rent their property out) so that they would get a secondary place. My friends were in an an area where there was a high likelihood they would get no local school, were nervous, and approached the council and were totally upfront with them. They in turn advised that if they actually moved (and rented out their other flat) for a couple of years, it would be fine.

OP, I really sympathise and I would suggest that you just call the council up and explain your situation. See what they say, as councils are different up and down the country.

I'm doing something similar, so am finding this thread interesting.

Only we're moving 4 hours away.

Dh will stay in my owned house while I and the kids move into rented accommodation while our house sells.

I can't see us getting any sort of school place if they insist on using our owned property as our main address. We want to move before september for many reasons, main being we want settled in new schools asap.

We moved mid way through the admissions process. We own a property (small 1.5 bed flat) and bought a much bigger place and moved out and rented out property 1. I emailed the admissions office well in advance. I explained our situation and submitted all our documents. They were very helpful. I had a couple of phone conversations with him, I got it all in writing and property 2 was considered for admissions purposes. But I did start the process WELL in advance of the admissions round and let them know that we would be physically moving just a month before the deadline. I tried to remain as above board as possible, and they were equally reasonable about it.

I don't see what you're doing wrong- if you've got permission to let from your mortgage company, got a tenant in yours and are paying council tax and bills at a new address then I don't see how they could argue with this? Lots of people don't sell because of negative equity but need to move

I think you were very wise, Leni. I think, as you say, if you're straighforward and above board, LEAs are very helpful. They do realise, of course, that people move homes. People even move homes and consider their children's education at the same time. As long as you've genuinely moved then I don't see the issue.

Detestable they were about 2 miles apart, which in our bit of London is a fair way.

I think LEAs are perfectly capable of using their wits. Family of 4 move from 2 bed flat with no garden to 3 bed house with garden, put tenants in flat and move all documentation to new house. If it was family of 4 move from 4 bed house with garden to 2 bed flat with none, etc etc, that would be very suspicious. London LEAs will also know about ludicrous house prices as well.

Is the length of a mile different in different boroughs then?

OP do NOT assume this will be ok. Many boroughs specifically state your owned address will be the one used regardless of the address you put down or where you pay council tax etc. Remember also that although you apply to your home borough, London and Surrey use one joint system for admissions and they do share records.

Oh and plenty of kids end up in schools several miles from their home - even in London. Not sure why some posters are saying otherwise.

No, but sclepping 2 miles in London traffic is quite a bit different to 2 miles in a leafy suburb. My mum used to drive me 6 miles to school, took 20 minutes. In rush hour traffic it could easily take 20 minutes to drive 2 miles, and you'd be unlikely to be able to park anywhere near the school.

Have you ever tried to drive 2 miles in rush hour in the suburbs?

Regardless, some boroughs state clearly they will not use a rented address when there is an owned one.

OP
It will hinge on whether the LA could regard your new address as temporary. Some LA's regard temporary as under 12 months, some have no set timescale but apply their own judgement. I would look at the rules for your borough and see how tight they are..... I think if you're in the new house for 2 years prior to starting admissions process it is reasonably likely it would be seen as legitimate?? Especially if you're very honest and forthcoming.

Why not telephone the LA, state your dilemma and explain reasons for moving and that you're eager to make sure it is regarded as genuine and see what they say?

I'm not being ridiculous thank you.

The op will have lived in the house for 2/3 years.
I doubt any local authority could challenge that
Addresses are not investigated as a matter of course and there is no box to be ticked that asks about what houses you own,

And before you ask, yes I'm London, in a very oversubscribed area where people get away with this( which I don't agree with) but this op is will be moving 2/3 years before for different reasons

Titchy you're scaremongering. Where do you live?

London is NOT the same. I can't even get into a school 800m away, let alone the next nearest four. So moving TWO miles and taking on a 12 month tenancy is absolutely legal and above board WITHIN THE PARAMETERS given by the OP. In that TWO miles distance is more than twenty schools. TWENTY. So no, in London it isn't always a case of wanted the BEST school. There's no such thing in London. Sure, there's rules. There's also religion. There's lots of things. But your claims are false in London. They do not only take into account an owned property and nothing else. If I could afford to buy a garage in London for rental then I would. Cheap at £200k in Chelsea.!

Thanks so much everyone - really appreciate all these replies!

lenibose that's really helpful to know - good advise re advance planning.

I won't take anything as scaremongering, what I take from all this is do the research, preceded with caution and assume nothing. What stands in our favour is the move to a bigger home in a cheaper area.

I've a couple of questions - 1) do you think schools will be ok about us visiting before we move to the area? To me it would seem silly to just move and then find out we really don't like the schools.

And 2) if DD were in school in our current borough because we stayed, then we needed to do an in-year admission to a school in the new borough, could she stay at her current school til a place came up at a nearby school? Or could they just out her in any school in the new borough that had a place no matter how far? (I can probablyguess the answer to this - but I would want to move her as few times as possible!)

Finally - someone mentioned upthread about capital gains. Better news on this front if anyone's interested. You only pay tax on the gain proportional to the period the property is rented out for, minus the last 18 months. So if we rented it out for two years, only 6 months would be considered for tax, as a percentage of the overall period of ownership.

Thanks again all

It isn't scaremongering to suggest the OP proceeds with lots of caution and luckily the OP doesn't think it is either.

P
OP, re 1, I think that would be fine. Re 2, I think once the LA. Has found you a place, if you turn it down then they have no further obligation to find you another. In some areas, there will be waiting lists you can stay on; in others, you would have to keep checking. Again, worth asking your target LAs!

Also be aware of this:

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Titchy, yes I have. I grew up in a leafy suburb and, like I said, it took 20 mins to drive the 6 miles to my school.

You can visit schools in any area you like, we visited across 2 boroughs as we were thinking of moving. I think your DD would stay at her current school until a place came up at the new school, they wouldn't boot her out.

Those who say categorically that this is not allowed are wrong. It is up to the LA - in this case the one where the OP will be renting. Some LA's say that they will not accept a rented address if the parents own a property. Others take a different stance. The OP needs to talk to the LA and find out what they have to say. I would recommend getting it in writing so that there is evidence of what was said.

OP - to answer the questions in your latest post:

1. I would expect schools will be happy for you to visit.

2. If the new borough offer you a place you don't want you can keep your daughter in her current school until a place became available. They cannot force you to move. In this situation you should be very clear when rejecting the offered place that you want to stay on the waiting list for your preferred schools.