Maths at Year 5? What 'should' they be able to do? What can they do? Homework?

[uhoh1973]

A friend of mine has asked me to help her year 5 child with their maths. The child is reasonably smart and diligent student and is in the 'top set'. I have read the maths curriculum for England which describes what they should be able to do. We sat down and they struggled with division e.g. 262/8 and multiplication e.g. 20x42 - getting them consistently wrong i.e. didn't really know how to do it confidently. They can only do their times tables up to 7. When I asked what was 25% of 400 they had no clue where to start and even with prompting it was a struggle.
The class currently has a supply teacher as the old teacher left at Easter and now get no homework (in any subject)...
I am rubbish at my times tables but certainly remember (atleast starting to) learn them between the ages of 5 and 7 so it seems to me they are not in a good place with their maths.
What 'should' year 5 be able to do and how 'fluently'? Surely they should know all their times tables?
How much homework does your year 5 get? Surely zero is not correct?
I have suggested their parents to ask about the homework situation as it seems the problem is atleast partially a lack of practice...
It is a concern for us as DCs are at the same school but in a lower class. I am concerned about the quality of teaching...

I can't really help on what they 'should' be able to do as my y6 DD struggles. But certainly by the end of y5 they would have been introduced to fractions, percentages and written methods for division and multiplication.

If you are going to 'help' then you need to make sure you know the methods the school uses. Number lines going on to different written methods.

Here are my general tips for helping with maths (maths degree but 2 children who don't find academics easy). In no particular order.

You need to start with what they can do and start from there. It won't help their confidence to have you throw things at them that they can't do.

So start with open questions:

• have you been taught about percentages
• what can you tell me about them

Do you know what 1/2 means.
etc.

When doing methods for e.g. multiplication and division, use 'easy' numbers like 2 and 5 and 3, that they know their times tables for. So not 262/8 but 685/5.

When doing adding and subtracting, I find using coins helpful and the concept of 'going to the bank' to exchange 10ps for 10x1p or whatever useful for introducing column methods.

Fractions can usefully be done with talking about dividing pizzas. Haven't found a good practical method for showing how to multiply and divide them though.

Do they know about the fingers trick for the 9x table.

All the above is for 'basic' numeracy.

There is more emphasis on wordy problems these days too. Picking out the numbers from within the words and working out what to do with them.
RUCESAC (Read, Underline, Choose, Estimate, Solve, Answer, Check)

Hope this helps.

Mine is younger. He is only year 1. But he has homework 5 days a week reading, 3 days English and maths.

He does multiplication x2,5,10,11 and just started x3. So I would expect a year 5 (4 years older) to know at least all of those well, and probably more.

He knows fractions and percentages but they only do easy ones atm. Again I would think a year 5 should know more

It's obviously they struggle hence your helping. I would do as above and go though the basics first to make sur ether know what even basic %, fractions etc actually mean. 1/2 of 10 apples, 1/3 of 9 etc

Thanks. I started with what do you find easy, enjoy, what can't do and got them to tell me how to do the sums so I didn't try to teach them the 'wrong' method. I worked from worksheets they had from school so wasn't 'making up' the questions myself. The point of the division was to see if there was a remainder and talk about why.
They are starting fractions in Yr 1 so I would be pretty alarmed if top group in Year 5 did not know what a half was. But I get your point.
How is your school for homework? I would have thought it would help the teacher to see what they can and cannot do?

I think this link shows what they are supposed to know at this stage:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/335158/PRIMARY_national_curriculum_-_Mathematics_220714.pdf

My Yr5 DD gets weekly homework, which alternates between maths one week and literacy the next.

They have spent a lot of time working on their times tables and know them all up to their 12s. They also do a lot of speed tests where they have to answer as many as possible within a given time.

I'm fairly sure that they have done work on percentages. DD has definitely brought home work with multiplication and division questions like the ones you describe.

DD is probably in the second group for maths (they move around a fair bit) so I don't think she's doing anything that most Yr5s wouldn't be doing.

Easy to see list:
uk.ixl.com/math/year-5

And mastery:
www.ncetm.org.uk/public/files/23305632/Mastery_Assessment_Y5_Low_Res.pdf

Thanks for the mastery link - that is very useful :-)

My ds is in Y5 and is in middle table for Maths, but used to be nearer bottom in old school. They are expected to know all times tables, but his 7's and 8's are a bit dodgy. They do get homework, something they have been doing that week usually, though occasionally it is something more of a test style covering a variety of topics.

His mental Maths is quite good.

I think perhaps this child was a bit nervous going into it with you. Things involving memory are hard when you're nervous. Also, skipping between different types of questions would be difficult too. I can see my ds not managing to do what you'd asked simply because his brain would be trying to get used to you, the situation of 'maths tuition' as well as a different topic to what they're looking at in school.

Last week ds was creating groups of 4 numbers which added to 10, but they were numbers with 2 decimal places eg. 2.76 + 3.15 + ? + ? = 10 The worksheet gave them 2 numbers. They often have these 'busy ants' worksheets.

I would suggest the parent does times table on a different day to you or leave a couple of sheets to do whilst you're not around. There is a great timestable worksheet website which I use for my kids as you can personalise worksheets on multiplication grid pdf generator. www.mental-arithmetic.co.uk/index.htm. They are also quite fun to do.

My DC's Year 5 class seems to have been focusing on mastery of times tables (up to 12) including division facts (e.g. you know that 3x4=12 and also 12/4 =3) with quick recall.

Each week they are supposed to practice quick recall and get an additional homework sheet (which includes differentiated levels - children encouraged to pick questions at the level they wish) which is meant to take 30 minutes (and they are told to stop after 30 if not finished).

Thankyou redskytonight that is very helpful.

Thinking back to last year: easy recall of all multiplication and division and all tables fluently up to 12. Good on money, weight /measurement. Ok on fractions including equivilant ones, should have been able to do more fraction probs than he could. They didn't do percentages until early year 6 but did do mean median and mode. Could do simple angles plus area, perimeter and volume. I'm sure there's more. He was top table but far from genius. Decimals pretty ropy unless adding or taking them away. If he actually showed some workings put occasionally he might fare better.

I teach year 5. They are expected to know all x tables and related division facts by the end of year 6. I'd say about 2/3 of my class know this and most of the rest up to x7. We have learned formal calculation methods for addition and subtraction up to 5 digits and formal short multiplication and division. We've covered long multiplication but I'd say they're not all secure in that. I would expect them to be able to multiply pairs of 2 digit numbers using the grid method though. Related to all of this, they need to apply these skills to 2-step problems. They can also add and subtract fractions and multiply fractions by a whole number. They should be able to add amounts of money mentally where possible and calculate change from a whole number mentally. They also need to convert between units of measure, including between metric and imperial. We haven't covered percentages yet but are due to do so before the end of the year.

That's off the top of my head. Sorry it's long - there is more but Id have to check it all!

Thank you Gracegrape and suit2845321oie very helpful.

why have they asked you to help? you really need to know the methods used in school, the curriculum etc... you could make it a whole lot worse!

but yes they should know their times tables, including division facts by end of yr4
my yr5 dd would be able to do those questions in your OP easily.

'why have they asked you to help? you really need to know the methods used in school, the curriculum etc... you could make it a whole lot worse!'

I love the positive attitude people adopt on musmnet. Why did they ask me;

• they dont know me from Adam
• Ive never helped at the school
• Ive no interest in education
• I dont know their children and I've no clue about maths. Based on the above they thought I was perfect ;-). And no I don't tinker in heart surgery either !!

But thanks, this bit 'my yr5 dd would be able to do those questions in your OP easily.' is helpful.

i've clearly offended you... from your OP you didn't seem to know much about KS2 maths.

i HAVE seen children get worse from being "tutored" by their mother - different methods.

i wasn't trying to be negative, it was a genuine question. I didn't say "they shouldn't have asked you to help" or "don't help".

Both DSs would be able to do the question in op they are year 4 and 5. And they know all their times tables except they make mistakes with 9 times tables sometimes.

They get maths homework once a week and have four days to do it, it's fairly easy stuff and there is little pressure to do it.

DS in year 5 has this term been doing improper fractions, equivalent fractions, decimals and percentages. I think they were supposed to know all their times tables by the end of year 4 – they don't seem to do them much any more. He gets maths and spag homework once a week.

My DD is on a middle table so is probably about average ability. She works hard but takes ages to get new concepts. She's good at anything involving graphs and shapes as she visualises well, she is much less good at numbers as she tends to be sloppy in her work and makes silly mistakes. She has just finished learning her tables to 12 times 12, and the related division facts. She is now secure in this. She has secure methods for carrying out short and long multiplication and division but is liable to making mistakes. She has been studying fractions this term and is starting to be able to do simple additions and subtractions. She had 10 equivalent fractions questions and simplifications for homework this week, she gets homework once a week for maths and it is thoroughly marked. If you don't hand in homework, you stay in at break to do it. It will take a lot more repetition before she properly gets fractions. Hope that helps. Learning her tables has taken us 10 minutes a day for 2 years and has been quite painful for me, though she has been great and worked hard at it. Hope that helps.

We sat down and they struggled with division e.g. 262/8 and multiplication e.g. 20x42 - getting them consistently wrong i.e. didn't really know how to do it confidently.

Sorry but this does not sound like a year 5 top-set child; those would be quite easy calculations for any more able child.
We no longer set our children but I would expect all of the class to be able to solve those calculations using bus-stop method and compact multiplication. Some of the less confident might not consistently get them right or make silly mistakes, but they all know the methods.

Thank you for your inputs. AllPizzasGreatAndSmall this is my thought exactly. I am concerned if this is the 'top' group of say 4 groups. I can understand silly mistakes but to consistently apply the method(s) incorrectly concerns me.
I benchmarked the questions with a couple of my friends' kids and it seems for very able 11 year old they are a piece of cake (no errors) and for an able 9 year old they are quite tricky (but able to do all times table 100%). So for a 'top set' 10 year old they should be able to do them (atleast the times table and apply the methods if make small mistakes).