School Admissions: Certificate of Catholic Practice?

[paternoster]

Our local Catholic primary prioritises admissions for baptised Catholics who have a Certificate of Catholic Practice signed declaration by the parish priest, but the policy doesn't say how often we would need to go to church in order to get one, or for how long before we apply. I'm guessing that's the decision of the priest, based on his interpretation of Canon Law about mass attendance, and his benevolence towards transgressions. Does anyone have any experience of this type of policy? How long the practice has to be maintained generally speaking if there's no information about it in the policy?

I think it's at the discretion of the priest. Some friends of mine had their child baptised in the Catholic church to ensure entry into the local catholic primary school. Straight after the service the priest informed them he wouldn't be giving them the certificate for another 12 months, in which time they had to go to church 3 Sunday's a month! Crafty old goat.

According to the admissions code;

"In drawing up their admission arrangements, admission authorities must ensure that the practices and the criteria used to decide the allocation of school places are fair, clear and objective. Parents should be able to look at a set of arrangements and understand easily how places for that school will be allocated."

and

"Admission authorities must ensure that parents can easily understand how any faith-based criteria will be reasonably satisfied."

I would go back to them and ask them to make it explicitly clear what you need to do. If they won't, then refer them to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator.

In my experience they have said 3 years, but if you just moved to an area you need to let the priest know this. If you travel, and will miss mass, you must let the priest know. The priest must also know you...so it is good to try and talk to the priest after every mass, volunteer to read or do the creche. Go to church 2-3 times a month is fine, as long as you do the other things as well.

You would need to be regular church attenders for a few years and not just the year leading up to school applications. I would say at least 2/3 Sunday's a month in most but depends on how oversubscribed the school is.

Not sure about the question really. If you have had your child baptised, you obviously attended Church prior to having children and you will know your priest. If you are worried that because of work/social life you are not able to attend Church regularly (and it is regular attendance so it could be once a month for example) then raise the question with your priest. I didn't start volunteering to do anything at Church until I had time to do it which, was well after my children had all started at school, so I don't agree that you 'have' to do anything. But equally, if you have your child baptised and don't make the attempt to go to Church it is quite within the priests right to refuse to sign a form. All religious schools are perfectly aware that there are parents who attend church in order to get their child into the school and, the reason that 'regular' is not outlined as for example 'twice a month' is that the demands of family and work life are well known and this wording of regular gives the priest some leeway.

Oh! forgot to mention that 'service to the Church' is no longer a criteria in the points system...

It's three years at our church.

I would go back to them and ask them to make it explicitly clear what you need to do. If they won't, then refer them to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator

PatriciaHolm - Playing devil's advocate, could they not just say they are making it explicitly clear - you need to have a Certificate of Catholic Baptism - and that it is for the church to decide when and how that certificate is to be awarded, just as it is for the award of the baptism certificate?

If you're Catholic churchgoers, just ask the priest next Sunday.

If you're not, it'll look a bit more pointed when you enquire.

But on the general assumption that priority is for active members of the RC congregation, in good standing with the church, the expectation that they can find out from their priest doesn't seem unreasonable.

Catholics have an obligation to go to Mass every Sunday, this does not depend on any interpretation of Canon Law. Saturday evening Vigil Mass (if your parish has one) is a "Sunday Mass", so if you are tied up on a Sunday, go to the Vigil Mass. You can go to any Catholic church (ie. if you are on a day trip, or holiday), including abroad, and you can ask the priest there to give a signature of attendance.

This said, a parish priest will know who practising Catholics are.

Its issued by the church - ask them. Its not unclear and complies entirely with the admissions code.

The admissions authority is required to ensure that the test for getting a certificate, and any forms required to get it completed (such as signed forms from the priest every week) comply with the admissions code. They form part of the admissions arrangements for the school, and as such must be determined annually by the admissions authority, and published publicly by the school.

Schools are required by law to publish their admissions arrangements, and not rely on parents ringing up or talking to anyone to have to figure it out. There are numerous decisions on this by the Office of the Schools Administrator.

The whole system is a complete sham. Such a shame admission to schools is linked to religion.

Only for faith schools, and if you're not of the faith why would you be choosing it for your child?

The form actually asks the priest to verify that they know the family and that they're practising. It deliberately does not ask the priest to state for how long or for the priest make a judgement on their attendance.

It's at the discretion of priest and the admissions code have asked the church to design it like that rather than its previous incarnation. So there's little point going back to them saying it lacks clarity as they're the ones who wanted that woolly wording.

Suffice it to say if you're going to mass regularly enough to feel confident about presenting the form then don't worry about the priest signing it.

The guidelines for the certificate of practice issued by the diocese of Westminster state that -

" Practising Catholic means Catholic children from practising Catholic families who comply with the precepts of the Church to attend mass on Sundays and Holy Days of obligation evidenced by a certificate of Catholic practice from their parish priest or the priest in charge of the Church where the family practises, in the format laid down by the diocese.”

I would imagine that is pretty much the standard definition. If that is on the school website (alongside info about what actually is "the format" for this diocese) then that is fine. If it isn't, I would argue (as someone who sits on appeals panels) that it needs to be, and should give people the info they need.

I appreciate that the code allows faith schools to determine what catholic practise means. But it still needs to be clear to applicants what they need to do!

Here it says the new Certificate of Catholic practice has been "agreed between HM Government and the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales," but that there's room for the priest to use his judgement on how weekly attendance is interpreted.

Unlike with the previous system of making attendance requirements explicitly clear in the school's admissions, there's presumably no way of a family appealing if there's disagreement over the priest's judgement.

t4gnut Tue 03-May-16 15:47:00
Only for faith schools, and if you're not of the faith why would you be choosing it for your child?

The problem is that in the lots of areas the best schools are faith schools in some shape or form. My old school used to have no faith aspect in admission but is now required for some bizarre reason. Children should have access to the best schools regardless of faith. The sham is that that lots of people are not of the faith but pretend in order to manipulate the system and get a place at the school. It is very widespread at some schools.

It looks like the whole concept of a "Certificate of Catholic Practice" might need a bit of an overhaul after this dressing down from the Schools Adjudicator .... www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/564951/ADA3141_St_Paul_s_Catholic_College.pdf

I wondered if the OP was the litigant parent in that case.

But this is a catholic school. It is the same for example going to Islamic school and think this is not linked to be a Muslim. So this particular school is religious. Threre are plenty of others that does not include faith.

Wow a reply to my post from 2016.

I think my point back then is that a lot of people pretend to have faith in order to get into the better schools in there area. In my own experience lots of the people are not really religious at all and in many cases effectively fake it for a couple of years before. Certainly the case at my old school which had no religious requirement 40 years ago but now does.

Also you say plenty of other schools that do not require faith. That is not true in some areas or if there are such schools they are much lower quality (and not because of the faith element). My old school is like that. It is the best school for miles around and hence people fake the faith. If they don't do that they go to a non-faith school that is much lower quality or pay for private school. Just keep religion out of schools is much better imo.

My Priest just asked for the Baptism certificate and signed it off straight away.
I had just moved though and I attend 1/2 times a month.

That's what we do back home.
There are only few private schools - either Montessori, which follows proper Montessori, not like in UK and price is nothing, few hundred pounds, or Waldorf one- both of them are great). Others are all states, as we never had primaries based on faith, absolutely separate from ages back in history. Secondary we have only one faith based/catholics and nothing else. Faith classes are separated, by choice and of course only those parents choose them, who are believers.
Myself now, I'm choosing catholic one in the UK, based exactly on the fact that the rest are poorer.
How did it work for you at that time? Did you get your children in?

Gotta love a zombie thread.