Can you help us decide between two Outstanding local schools

[jewelinthecrown14]

Dear Fellow Mumsnetters,

This is my first posting. Please can you help chose between the two excellent choices for our confident, bright and chatty little boy (only child):

Thank you reading this long post, but felt right to share as much information as we can.

School A:
Pros

1. Outstanding private co-ed from 4 to 11
2. 20 pupil intake, nurturing and almost bespoke education
3. Under 10 min walk from home
4. Sends to top preps at 11+, but welcomes a full range of abilities

Cons

1. Very limited outside space
2. Cost
3. Girl top heavy in latter years

Other points

1. He "won" a place in assessment (300+ applicants for 20 seats)
2. Our target schools are v. selective preps at 11+ (or possibly even 8+)

School B:
Pros

1. Outstanding CoFE primary, top 3 in an affluent London borough
2. Free
3. 30 pupil intake, but regarded as a small village school (in London)
4. About a 10 min walk from home
5. Lovely open facilities
6. Sends 30% to 50% to independent preps at 11
7. Strong music, french and good extracurriculars for a state school

Cons

1. Does not appear to send to very selective preps at 11, mainly Tier 2/3
2. Understandably, only does "lip service" to the 11+
3. Prior parents said their artistic child was not stretched (etc etc)

Other points

1. We got the place in the non-Faith / Open category
2. Education no.1 priority for us, vs holidays, large house etc
3. We are not native British, but have been in the local area for 20+ years

You sound like you want to choose option A. In your position, with only one child, I would choose A if I could afford it. I would be wary of choosing A if I thought I might have another child/children and could not then afford it for all 2/3 though....I know a few people that start private for first child but have to move when 2nd/3rd child reaches school age....

Thanks again all.

Karoleann: Private school A will not prepare for 7+ or 8+ as they go to 11. So if we leave at this stage we would be paying for smaller (20 Vs 30) class size and possibly slightly better academics, but giving up the open space in 4 to 7 years. On balance would you still definitely opt for A?

Foxyloxy1plus: yes we have visited both schools. We have talked to one/two parents at both. we have also visited 10 other privates/state primaries.

Mummytime: sorry, I was using "prep" loosely/incorrectly. What I meant was independent schools which start at 11+, or have entry points at 11+. For secondary will consider both boarding and day, boys only or co-ed, London or outside. We have not ruled out boarding preps at 8+/11+. We have not ruled out grammar.

Coffeecakemum: still working on it!

That's fine I was just getting a bit confused.

I would look at what you want most for the next 2-4 years, and would best suit your son for those. And consider what you may also have to fund, such as sports and tutors.
And what makes it most affordable and easiest to organise for you. My DC went to state primary, which worked for us; but we had lots of land, and it was convenient for ballet clubs etc, even childcare. In Preps I looked at they usually offered ballet during the day for example and good after school care, and even flexi boarding can be very useful.
The education itself doesn't sound necessarily that different.

A.

I live in London and went with B. I'm happy because it fits with my strongly held values but lots of parents who teetered and went with B later pulled their children and sent them to A. This was unfair on B as it ends up with a more transient population and having to integrate new kids who haven't had a good a start. It was unsettling to those kids committed to B.

If you are already drawn to small class sizes and preparation for selective day schools then you will constantly notice the large class size and lack of preparation offered by B.

Boarding schools start at 13 plus. Prep Schools that prepare for common entrance exams take children until 13, not 11. You do therefore need to think about what you want and plan accordingly. If you decide you want boarding at 13 I would go to the state school and transfer at 7 to a proper prep school. If you want a day independent school at 11, then school A is fine. State schools do not "send" children anywhere. Their parents decide what type of school they want at 11 and the state school teaches the national curriculum. Lots of children are tutored and the destinations you describe for the state school say more about the catchment area of the school, the aspirations and the incomes of the parents than anything else.

He is currently in a local outstanding council nursery with lots of open space, but a large class size. He loves it. Runs in like a dachshund.

Hi just wanted to say we are also in a similar position here and I can understand what you are going through. Have you made a decision? I am going in circles!
P/S: hope it's ok that I have adopted your post and started a new one of my own as I didn't want to hijack your thread.

I would go with B and move him later. Particularly in view of the space etc

"Boarding schools start at 13 plus"

Not all of them!

OP will need to have some idea of candidate schools by the time DC is 7 or 8 and decide them whether to commit to an 11+ prep, a 13+ prep, or a prepares-for-both-exit-points prep. Those who prepare exclusively for either 11+ or 13+ are fine if you are clear about your preferred schools, but if you're still deciding then one which can cover both might be the sensible choice.

Those saying move him later, do you have any idea how damaging it is to some good primaries that the upper middle classes swoop in, use the primaries as a free pre-prep, then take their child out half way through?

Our head actively tells people that it's not a pre-prep and if they anticipate leaving the school for private at 7 or 8 they should not choose the school.

But in London lots move anyway as parent move out of London.
Yes it's a problem for schools to have a transient population, but that is also part of being a London school.

"Those saying move him later, do you have any idea how damaging it is to some good primaries that the upper middle classes swoop in, use the primaries as a free pre-prep, then take their child out half way through?"

Absolutely. the "State til 8" attitude is disgusting.

Yes, It's all part and parcel of being in a city with high churn. Children are coming and going all the time.

But leaving at the end of y2 isn't 'damaging' in the same way as other times might be, as it's the historic break between infants and junior (in some places everyone is changing school), and also if schools still have waiting lists then those DC have hope.

I'd be surprised if enough were leaving to cause a real problem, because at yr3 there is every change the places will be filled. The awkward one is when private secondary schools have a 10+ entry because primary places might not be filled for yr6 only.

For a lot of boys outside space is a priority. For the infant school age it might be particularly important as they get used to learning. 4 year old boys have particularly high levels of testosterone so it might also depend when your ds birthday falls.
However for a few boys it would not be an issue at all but I expect it is an issue for you because you mentioned it.

Understandably, only does "lip service" to the 11+
If that is true, in your shoes I would wonder:
what if the 11+ is not just an exam he needs to pass (in your case it is)
but also a standard it is a good idea to reach if possible by the time he is eleven?

Could it be that the reason why private schools have better GCSE results is not so much that they teach better after eleven, but that the children they teach come ready prepared with understanding of the eleven plus basics before secondary school gets underway?

Not teaching to that general standard, whether or not pupils are going to need to take entrance tests, lets those who are capable of achieving it down in my opinion.

Once in secondary school everything moves fast. In the third year decisions for dropping a whole pile of subjects begin. Then the children begin studying for GCSEs.

So would you need to teach him/monitor him or get him tuition to get him to the right standard? If so would this mean he had no time to breathe? (On that score, does the private school overdo homework and pressure - could you ask other parents?)

The main thing is for your little boy to be happy and interested and with time to play too as well as getting good schooling . School work should only be one part of his life, important though it is..

"Could it be that the reason why private schools have better GCSE results is not so much that they teach better after eleven, but that the children they teach come ready prepared with understanding of the eleven plus basics before secondary school gets underway?"

Two things. Most 11+ exams are supposed not to be on things that can be taught- that's rather the point. Doesn't work that way in practice, but the skills required bear no relation to what's needed for GCSE.

And private schools get better GCSEs because they select out the kids who won't get good GCSEs.

"Two things. Most 11+ exams are supposed not to be on things that can be taught- that's rather the point"

That's the case for the state sector, where it is meant to be assessing potential.

There are plenty of independent sector 11+ exams that do depend on knowing the taught curriculum (the year standard on Galore Park at least, as rule of thumb), for some if not all of the papers they set.

I think that the OP should choose a school where she thinks her son will be happiest. The state school has lots of space, his friends will be going there and it has a good repruation. If she chooses to transfer to a private school at eight then that is her business. She needs to make the best decision for her son.

Children leave state schools all the time for various reasons. It makes little difference if a child moves to attend a prep school or moves because their family is relocating from London to Portsmouth. The issue of pupil turnover is really not the OP's problem.

Believe it or not, bright state school kids often do better than privately educated children. The OP will be saving thousands that money could be put in trust for her ds to pay for university education.

Both schools have boys who leave at 11+ to go to schools which prep for the CE until 13 and then the boy transfers to boarding senior school. I assume these boys are passing a pretest, interview and headmistress reference to secure a conditional place.

Blunt question but does having the right private school A blazer command an advantage at the 7/8/11 interview stage ("he's one of us")? Or rather would a state school B child be on an equal footing, or in fact have an advantage as fewer kids from state apply ("he's a breadth of fresh air")? Similar question relating to the headmistress reference: is the letterhead as important as the content at the 7/8/11 level? This is assuming both children are happy, chirpy, engaged, find things they are passionate about etc. If there is a disadvantage that is NOT a deal breaker for us, we just want to know going in.

If he is thriving we would actually prefer to keep him at either school until 11. However if there is an 8+ school that fits his needs significantly better we would have to explore this. Topic for another thread though.

Private school A gently discourages children leaving at 7 or 8, although 2 or 3 boys do (and to v. selective Tier 1 preps). Parents we have spoken say they did this because their boy had outgrown the school and that competition at 11+ stage was even more brutal (my view is that the odds are tough at any stage!).

State school B according to GSG has fewer and fewer parents leaving before 11 (historically some parents did leave at 7), "unless forced to by relocation". This could either be because the school is doing a great job, or that parental inertia means you don't change unless you really need to.

The thing is Bertrand I heard recently that one argument some teachers have against Grammar schools is evidence that able children at state schools - who would be inherently capable of passing the 11+ exams - but who did not have parents who can teach them or parents who can get them a tutor, fail it.

That made me think, why is it up to a parent or tutor rather than the school? Why are there two levels being sought: one for state primary schools and one for private primaries?

It also made me wonder what if it is not only selected ability, small classes, less stressed teachers, but the actual level of attainment already reached at eleven in Maths and English that helps a lot in preparing the ground work for what is to come later? I was only wondering, though. I have not heard of any trials of this hypothesis.

Jewel said her child is bright and confident. Would he nevertheless need coaching at the state school, but not at the other private one she is considering, in order to get him to the level he needs for the next school she wants for him? Perhaps not, in which case the state school with all those grounds sounds lovely.

My child went to a private primary aged eight after a lovely state one, after we moved house.

The state one was much nicer and more creative and generally first rate. We always regretted moving DC so this is why I know it is a difficult question.

However, the private one taught way more maths and more of the nuts and bolts of English than the other had. This meant a certain A* at GCSE maths for my child which I am sure she would not have got otherwise as even though she was generally able Maths had not been her main strength and she was never like a talented 'born' mathematician.

In my opinion there are things which are very difficult to catch up with if a child does not learn them early on.

The state till 8 is disgusting.

For myself, I feel that if more maintained secondary schools were as small, friendly, personal and well taught as good primaries are many people would choose to stay in them rather than move to the private sector.

Is it not already the case that London maintained schools are becoming better, better than some private schools, and so more people are opting for them?

At least if people start at a state primary they might decide to stay on. If they decide not to it may be for genuinely real concerns.

If possible I think it is better to move children as little as possible though.

Blunt question but does having the right private school A blazer command an advantage at the 7/8/11 interview stage ("he's one of us")? Or rather would a state school B child be on an equal footing, or in fact have an advantage as fewer kids from state apply ("he's a breadth of fresh air")?

I am sorry I do not know the answer. One would think that B would be fine if he could pass the exam and chats the way you say he already does.

DO you think you could telephone the heads of the schools you are thinking about for the future and ask them straight out?

I have just remembered seeing in the news that children have been getting so coached recently that the schools are looking for methods to search beyond the coaching.

Looking quickly I found this.
www.nappyvalleynet.com/nicola-woolcock-education-correspondent-the-times/

London schools do sound very stressful for children. I am sure there needs to be more balance. Happy, interested children who are taught to think for themselves, and also consider other people; and who have time to play and to pursue hobbies should be the main aim.

It's quite depressing going to prep school for the CE years only.

"Blunt question but does having the right private school A blazer command an advantage at the 7/8/11 interview stage ("he's one of us")? Or rather would a state school B child be on an equal footing, or in fact have an advantage as fewer kids from state apply ("he's a breadth of fresh air")?"

As in "he's a bit of a rough diamond- but a heart of gold........."

I too find state til 8 a bit irksome. It always felt very unsettling when another child trotted off to a private school and parents said it was their intention all along. Not only was it discombobulating, it made you question whether you were doing alright by your child keeping them in their local school. Especially since parents would often frantically justify their decision by saying things like, 'the thing is, little Felix is just so bright that the teachers were using him as an extra TA'.

Anyway, answering the OP, we went for option C - local undersubscribed primary, currently ofsted rated RI. Eldest now in London pretty selective private secondary. I deliberately sent him off to his interviews for private secondaries in his polyester school fleece as I thought it would benefit him to be obviously not from a cramming prep. It didn't seem to have done him any harm.