Spellings help please

[onelasttrythenimout]

My Dc are struggling with their spellings it doesn't seem to matter what we try they just don't seem to be able to remember them let alone write them in their work. How did your Dc learn theirs? In all honesty I am at a complete loss now and don't know what else to do to help them. I have spoken to the school and they say the best way is to continue using look, cover, write and check but this clearly has not been helping even though I make sure they are doing it correctly.

Ab so lute ly, Rafa

My DS school use the look cover write method but they also teach them to assign a silly phase to help remember the word eg cape could be remembered as cat ate purple eggs.

Bobo that method works, but only with some. I think that's the rub, really. Not all methods are universally successful and a bit of variation might be needed.

I never learned phonics in the UK but then I'm ancient.

I think it's dependent on how many phrases you have to learn and whether you can remember the words to them all. I suspect the children that can remember them are probably not the ones that have the issue with remembering strings of letters using LCWC.

Well taught phonics is as close to universally successful as we can get at the moment. The few that don't get it are unlikely to be helped by variations.

Most, if not all, literate adults will have figured out phonics for themselves regardless of how they were taught. Or at least most of the more common spellings for each sound. The reason for teaching phonics now is so we don't leave children to attempt to figure out the spelling system for themselves and more children can benefit.

Rafa what you say isn't true. Most adults who didn't learn phonics still managed to learn to read well. In my case I have a PhD in poetry from a 1st class UK university. I still don't get phonics. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Because it is fashionable now, doesn't mean its the best for everyone or the only way to learn, or is going to overcome all other forms of learning.

That's just silly.

If we have learnt to read well we have learnt how written words relate to spoken words. We may have been taught explicitly or we may have worked it out for ourselves but it's still phonics.

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”

He took his vorpal sword in hand;
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Are you suggesting that with a PhD in poetry you would need the help of another adult to read Edward Lear. There's so many nonsense words in here that the only way you could read it would be using phonic skills to read the unfamiliar words. Or by being helped by someone that does know phonics telling you what all the words were as you came across them.

Don't confuse not knowing that you are using phonics to read unfamiliar words with not using phonics. For skilled readers it's something that happens so quickly they are not aware they are doing it.

Unlike my spell check, which now hates me for that.

And yes, I know that's Carroll not Lear.

That's what you get for not concentrating or having an edit button.

omg OP at $3000 Ther must be a more economical way. Let us know how you get on.

Before wasting money on Danks Davis ...

Thanks for the info Mrz I really don't think I will be paying out that amount of money. My Dn uses the silly phrases and Ds did try it yesterday which helped him to remember 2 of his spellings but we will see if he remembers them.

I think it is a bit harsh to say money spent on a specific tutoring programme is a "waste" Mrz. You don't know that.

Results from these programmes can be difficult to quantify given that all learners are different. However, the company is very happy to share before and after assessments of their students compiled by independent educational psychologists.

Having said that, no way would I impart with $3000 for a programme I knew little about. I didn't have to as it was invented locally and it's $45 a pop. There is no hard sell about it. The inventor was severely dyslexic and devised it based on her research, and sold the programme to allow others to share it rather than a money-making exercise. She died fairly young and I, for one, am very grateful she shared her knowledge as it is helping my child no end.

Did you read the information about the Danks Davis? It's snake oil!

deevybee.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/neuroscientific-interventions-for.html

Please listen to Mrz and the others. Your DS needs to be able to break words down into their individual sounds in order to be able to spell them.
You can use this to help build their confidence with spelling too. If they don't know how to spell a word ask them which bit of the word they don't know. So say they don't know how to spell boat? Well what does t start with? A 'b', so you know that but; What does it end with? A 't'. You know how to spell most of the word! Let's work out what that middle sound could be etc.
They need to start thinking of words as strings of sounds not strings of letters. Even if they memorise the strings of letters - which is what most spelling activities involve, they will inevitably forget them over time if they don't understand the underlying principle that letters represent sounds.
Try games like 'How do you spell 'bat'? Now how do I turn 'bat' into 'cat'? Or 'Spell 'dog', now what happens if I change the 'd' to a 'h'? (Remember to use the sounds not the letter names).
Another game is to look at a picture book together and ask them to point to the 'c-a-r', saying the sounds separately and asking them to blend them together to make a word. Anything so they start thinking of words as strings of different sounds.

Thanks Elisheva.

So what if I was to use a seeing and hearing approach by highlighting each of the sounds? Do you think that would help? Ds has just briefly mentioned something about syllables, is that the same as the sounds? I really don't want to google anymore it is hurting my head!

I just feel so bloody hopeless, I really wish I could remember how I learned my spellings it driving me insane!

They aren't the same as sounds, but they are essential in spelling longer words. There is a technical definition, but they are essentially the 'beats' in a word.

Some words will only have 1 syllable e.g. cat, spring.
Many have more than one e.g. doc/tor, mem/or/ise. (You might need to say these out loud to hear them).

Depending on how much they are struggling with spelling you might want to focus on single syllable words first. If you can get them used to the process that maizie outlined in 1 syllable words, then it might be easier for them to add the step of splitting the word into syllables and then applying the process to each syllable.

TBH the first thing I would probably do, for your older child in particular, is to check for any obvious gaps in his knowledge of phonics. The whole process is going to be a lot easier if he is at least aware of what the different spellings for each sound are.

These videos showing the process, probably show it better than I can explain it.

This might help you figure out where the problems are with understanding spelling patterns.

This program has lots of practise splitting words up.

Thanks again for the links and the suggestions. Can I ask one last thing? If a child isn't secure in their phonics would they still be able to read pretty much any word they see?

My ds learned to read without phonics. So, he was able to read pretty much any word he sees without phonics. But I don't think it's so common.(Are they?)
He really benefitted by learning phonics at school though, for tackling more difficult words he encounters now.

That's a difficult question to answer. It depends on a lot of things. But it's possible

they might do.

Some children have a very good memory and can memorise a lot of words before they reach their capacity. They may be reading fairly fluently even at KS2. They might struggle with words they have never seen before, particularly if they contain a particularly rare spelling for a sound.

Secondly, reading is a much easier process. The number of possible pronunciations for any spelling is much fewer than the possible number of spellings for a given sound.

e.g.
spelling 'ea' - possible pronunciations /ee/ as in sea, /e/ as in bread and /ay/ as in great.
sound /ee/ - possible spellings ee, ea, e, e_e, ey, ie, ei, oe, and a few more.

MaizieD, thank you for the detailed explanation. I will look for your youtube videos. My dd too struggles with spelling, though not as badly as onelasttry. I suspect that her struggling might have something to do with my dyslexia and the fact that English wasn't my mother tongue. Not the case now.

The website readingrockets.org has some good explanations of how spelling and reading skills develop, plus some ideas to support.
That YouTube clip that Rafa posted is great - hierarchy seems like a difficult word to spell, but when you break it down into individual sounds it's actually only the /ch/ that is tricky.

If a child isn't secure in their phonics would they still be able to read pretty much any word they see?

I'd do a check with nonsense words to make sure they actually can. One of mine looked like was reading well but a page of actual words - just lists - but obscure words and as in a list absolutely no context she couldn't read and it was clear her go to strategy was guessing.

It was just easier to see with spelling.

Though currently she reads using phonics - which helps her with unknown words -still occasionally doesn't apply it to spelling - though she can now when prompted usually correct words - so I'm left wondering why she doesn't write them correctly to start with.

My ds learned to read without phonics.

My generation Uk wasn't taught phonics the vast majority worked out the complex phonics code - you ended up with about 20-25% who didn't or worked out bits of it - if you teach phonics the % having issues with reading and spelling drops down to a few %.

There is reach to back that up but many schools like my DC school still teach mixed methods or just apply phonics to early reading and then think it can be dropped. It's not unheard of for children to read without being explicitly taught phonics they've just figured it all out with exposure to written word.