School discipline policy - is this normal?

[toootired]

DC has recently been getting repeatedly in trouble for minor things ( not concentrating, fidgeting, chatting to a friend etc). However his current teacher's universal discipline method appears to send him out of class for varying periods of time. According to my dc, these vary from 5 mins to an hour or so - he is sent to the year above's classroom and given some random written work to do. This has happened every day, at least twice a day, this week. Sometimes they forget to get him back before the next class starts and he misses the start of a new topic.

This can't be normal discipline can it? Surely?

I'm worried that he's missing out on lots of learning for what seem like fairly minor infractions. I appreciate that if he's being continually low-level disruptive that's annoying but even if this is the case (and I'm not at all clear if it is), surely there must be better ways of discipline that actually deal with the problem and prevent it, not just hiding it out of sight?

Advice appreciated, thank you.

The pattern you describe would indicate that your son is very disruptive in lessons. Though it may sound like 'normal', 'cheeky' behaviour to you, it shows that your son is, for whatever reason, unable to behave acceptably in a classroom. The fact that he is the only one being sent out, makes this extremely evident. It also eliminates the possibility that it is the teachers weakness.
You need to take this extremely seriously. The children I have seen exhibiting such behaviour at primary school, stand a good chance at secondary school of being excluded.
Ask for a meeting at school. Say you want to work with them to address your sons behaviour. Do not be defensive or minimise what he is doing. Be open to what they say, and for the sake of your son, try and support whatever plan is put in place. Good luck.

he just joins in with something another boy is doing.

He probably is being cheeky (what you call "cheeky," I would call "rude")

Yes, he's guilty of sometimes not concentrating, esp if the work's a bit dull. (Can't be entertaining all the time)

Yes, he will occasionally joke around with his friends (Who's quantifying "occasionally" here? Him?)

You seem to be minimising his behaviour quite a bit. If it was "just" typical 9 year old behaviour, then other children would be in trouble too. I think parents often under-estimate quite how disruptive their own child's behaviour is for the class as a whole. And quite often, parents who are in favour of schools with strong discipline policies, actually mean they want other children disciplined, not their own, which is when they start looking to complain.

Disruptive behaviour is unacceptable. Can you back up the school and reward the days he has behaved

I agree with Clam.

And whatever the safeguarding issue was, it should not be relevant to his behaviour in the classroom. You need to separate the two - and be very clear with him that he can't use that as an excuse (if he's even articulated that there is a connection).

What I think really worrying is, OP says "He certainly doesn't have ADHD and is doing quite well academically."
Just because he is doing well, doesn't mean no sen? Sometimes it comes together?

I don't think it's acceptable for him to be sent out every day without you being notified. I think you should ask for a meeting with the teacher and with the SENCO. The SENCO isn't just there for children with diagnosed conditions / statement, they should be helping any child who is struggling in class.
My son sounds similar to yours in that he is very fidgety, finds it hard to focus in class, gets distracted easily. He is often the one who gets in trouble in a group as he gets easily led by others. We tried all the punishment and reward methods and things were just getting worse, he started saying he hated school as he was always in trouble. His self-esteem was very low. I asked the school to refer him for assessment. I was really nervous they would say he had ADHD. The outcome is that he doesn't have ADHD or Autism, however he does have some dyspraxia symptoms, issues with his motor skills (so finds handwriting difficult which affects his schoolwork) and some sensory processing issues too (hence the fidgeting). Having a professional to talk to was really helpful as we now have some practical ideas to work on.
So what I am trying to say is that you need to look deeper at the root cause of the problem. It doesn't necessarily mean he's got a major problem, but it might be something that no-one's realised like dyslexia for example (sometimes kids act up if they are worried about getting things wrong).
I personally don't think it's helpful labelling kids naughty or a pest. No young child wakes up in the morning and says 'I am going to cause lots of trouble today!'. Either they can't help it, or there is a reason for it. The teacher probably doesn't have the time to try and work out the cause of his behaviour, so they just send him out as the easy option.
I'd also try and get this sorted sooner rather than later because you have secondary school looming! If there is an issue you probably want to make sure the secondary school will be supportive.
Also probably telling you how to suck eggs but are you sure there's no issues with eyesight, hearing etc?
Since we had the assessments I think all of us - me, his dad, the teachers - have started seeing him as needing extra support rather than being a 'naughty' child and it's had a really positive effect on his school behaviour. However you do need to show the school that you are willing to meet them half-way. Then you can be more firm with the school that they need to properly address the issue, rather than the endless sending out which isn't teaching him anything is it?
Good luck!

The chatting to a friend is tricky, but with the fidgeting, maybe look at why, you can buy a wobble cushion which might help with this? Ask for him to use it on a chair and (if they do this) on the carpet. Check if they are doing enough moving about, boys especially need to move a lot, make sure they aren't punishing by not letting him out at playtime as this will make the fidgeting worse. I've read a bit on this as I have a ds who is four and finds it hard to sit still and an OT suggested the wobble cushion. Can you squeeze in ten or fifteen minutes at the park before school?

Would it be possible for you to suggest that you spend a day in class with them, you can then see what is happening, you can support the teacher by getting to understand the problem and you may find the threat of his mum coming in for a day if he is too disruptive might get him to tidy his behaviour up a bit?
On another note, if sending him out daily and it's not improving things, then the strategy isn't working? If the school are not budging then I'd push for them to test for Sen, even though you don't feel that is where the issue lies, in my opinion the answer to this behaviour is not sending him out daily, or more frequently so maybe some help from a professional, be it an ed psych or other might at least give some fresh behaviour management ideas to the class teacher?

Would it be possible for you to suggest that you spend a day in class with them,

Absolutely not! This would never be allowed in my school, and I suspect most others.

If he's never had problems before (& he's in year 4?), I think it's unfair to suggest the op is turning a blind eye to bad behaviour. Something clearly isn't right. Something has changed rather than this simply being a case of bad kid/incapable parent.

Op, this would never happen in our school. For a start he's missing out on huge chunks of teaching time and will quickly fall behind. But mainly as it's not a strategy for dealing with whatever the real issue is. You urgently need a meeting with the teacher and the head of pastoral care, and if you get nowhere you need to escalate to governors (in lieu of the head teacher).

Your son may be being a massive PITA but it baffles me that the school a) think missing class is an appropriate strategy and b) that they haven't involved you.

You need to stress to them the detrimental effect on your son and also your willingness to support the school in sorting things our.

clam I'm rather glad I don't work at your school or that my children go there then.

My DD had to leave a school because of this type of behaviour - quickly followed by three others -

You are allowed to go into class to witness lessons - open door policy

He would be given warnings and choices first - it's never automatic -

Ask for a daily report - could be a row of happy faces -

You could offer a reward for 5 end of week happy days -

You have the power to support the school and your child ... But do it now before he gets to high school

Similar boy in DD year has been suspended and spends most days in the exclusion zone -

There is a lot more backstory than I have given here as it wasn't relevant to my query about a specific discipline strategy which I was surprised the teacher was using to such an extent.

Just to say that to be fair to the teachers, my DS and myself, we have had considerable communication already and following this, the school is already starting to address some of the underlying causes of DS's change in behaviour eg with a referral to an OT etc. So none of us are quite as useless as some of these posts would make out!

I strongly suspect this particular discipline strategy may well be counter-productive in DS's case however and at best appears to have been ineffective (see www.edweek.org/tm/articles/2016/02/17/author-to-reach-struggling-students-schools-need.html?cmp=eml-eb-popweek%2003042016 for reasons why this approach may well backfire with some pupils). That's not at all the same as saying I think the misbehaviour doesn't matter or should be ignored, and on the contrary, I have considerable sympathy with the teachers and other pupils in this situation.

It is rather that if you ignore the causes of the behaviour, and just label the child as 'naughty', you may not resolve the behaviour effectively.

Open Door Policy? I am a Governor and we do not have one of these! Also I am CRB checked so I can go into school. Parents are not.

I would be interested to know, op, what your school's behaviour policy actually says regarding rewards and sanctions. Have they followed their policy? When should you be informed of the sanctions?. Lots of schools will inform parents about poor behaviour and work with them because they want the behaviour to improve. Sending a child out of class at least once a day is almost unheard of. Clearly no effort has been made by the school to improve his behaviour in an effective way. Also, do ask for an urgent meeting op. If a school does not follow its behaviour policy, it may end up excluding. It sounds like it is poorly run.

Additionally he is missing a great deal of teaching. You will have to accept his behaviour is not good enough. I am always surprised what behaviour people think is ok for a 9 year old boy, but it really is down to the school to talk to you about their strategies and to get you on board and involved. As I said earlier, it is lazy not to do so. Also, go to the head (or acting head). The class teacher has not bothered to contact you. He/she should have done by now. Also, it is not a discipline policy, it is a behaviour policy.

curluponthesofa - thanks for taking the time to write your post - some useful suggestions there and your ds sounds similar to mine in some ways. I'd love him to have an assessment but can't afford one ourselves - if school could refer him that would be great.

Thanks bojorojo - very helpful.

Yes, the school is badly run at the moment - it failed an Ofsted inspection so the head left and it currently has no head and poor morale. That is probably part of the problem.

I have spoken to the class teacher many times and we now have regular communication, so that is good, but getting the support I think my DS needs, especially after recent events, is a slow process and in the meantime I am hoping for discipline strategies beyond simply sending him out repeatedly.

OP, how is your DS sleeping at night? Poor sleep can lead to behaviour problems. Also have you checked him for worms? Worms can cause behaviour problems in children and is really simple to fix. At 9, you wouldn't even know if he had worms unless he told you, and he might be really scared to tell you if he did.

OP I think you've been given a hard time here.
Have you asked the teacher what positive discipline measures have been taken already.....moving him to a different table, giving him something to fiddle with, checking whether he is settled correctly and high enough/low enough etc? These are all things I think they should be doing before moving him every lesson. I would be upset that they hadn't informed me about removing him regularly before now.

I think you should arrange a meeting with SENCO,class teacher and any other set teachers he may have and expa,in that whilst you understand he may be being disruptive, you'd like to work out an inclusive a plan as possible between you. It may be that if he struggles in any area, they could assess whether he perhaps needs more support/challenges etc.

OP, I read your link, above. Are you saying this is pertinent to your son's situation?

Not asking for details, just want to know if it's relevant or if you were linking it as an example of why you generally dislike the school's disciplinary method.

Sprink - yes, it's relevant. Don't want to go into details, but yes, I think that's probably behind this sudden behavioural change.

And it explains why I have avoided coming down heavily on my DS for his recent behaviour. Not just because I am a crap parent who thinks the sun shines out of my DS's arse and he can do no wrong, or because I like making teachers' lives harder than they are already.

If you are looking at why classroom exclusions don't work as a long-term solution, Dr Ross Greene has written some interesting work on this - some of it summarised here: m.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/schools-behavior-discipline-collaborative-proactive-solutions-ross-greene

Thanks curl - great article.