Appeal regarding a place at a preferred school with sibling

[Idontknow1]

I was wondering if people could shed light on my case...
I have a 7 year old child who attends a primary school. I wanted my 4 year old child to attend the same school however we are out the catchment area has we since moved.

The school has two classes in reception one of 22 and one of 23 and this continues all the way through till year 1 and year 2.

Has the legal limit is 30 children to a class per one qualified teacher...

Do i have a chance of winning this appeal and HOW ?

Your input would be highly apperciated

Regards

Appreciated*

Our school has 22 in one reception class and 23 in another. This is 45 in total which means in ks1 there are 3 classes of 30. Class 1, mixed year class 1/2 and class 2.

If your school arranges their classes in the same way ( which most schools who take 45 per year will ) then this is still an infant class size appeal and would be very hard to win.

I'm really not sure how you'd be able to win an infant class size appeal but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly to offer some advice.

A few thing you could do with knowing..
Are siblings given priority over distance? Or the other way around?
You also should find out which category you were put in (so should have been out of catchment, with a sibling link). Were you put in the correct category?
And then what was the category / distance for the last offered place?
I'm sure as pp said some knowledgeable people will be along soon.

Considering the size of the school is pretty small compared to other primary schools. They have 45 children in every year so reception will be two classes one of 23 and one of 22...these will then move onto year 1 and year 2 with no new intake of kids.

The local authority give priority to catchment area first then siblings.

I believe the legal limit for a reception class with one qualified teacher is 30 children. If that is the case obviously there is more than sufficient places.

The issue is being a small school is there enough space in the classroom to fit in another child. How do I go about figuring it out.

Also at the school he's currently attending he cries on a daily basis I believe this will deter him from an early education.

You can ask for stats of space per child in the classroom.

You need to be sure how they arrange the classes in yr 1 and yr2, as said above. They may have 45 children per year, but if they operate mixed year classes in yr1 & 2(so have 3 classes of 30 across Yr1 and yr2 with yr1 and yr2 children taught together) then it remains an ICS appeal, even though reception has fewer than 30 children per teacher. Are you sure they operate as 2 separate classes per year each year in KS1? That would be unusual, most schools of this size would jump at the cost saving of 3 teachers rather than 4!

I've spoke to the head and also the admissions department..this is how they operate the school

Reception 45 children to the year in two classes of 22 and 23.

Year 1 also has 45 children to the year in two classes of 22 and 23

Year 2 same again two classes 22 and 23

These are Not mixed aged classes.

So will this be classed as a infant class size appeal...all so confusing.

It doesn't sound like it would fall under infant class size in that case, because the classes all have less than 30 children.

This is not as it stands an infant class size case and so any appeal would be on the level of prejudice to your child against those already at the school. If you already have an older sibling in the school that is an advantage.
However you do need to check one thing. Is there a situation where the school is expanding and so further up the school there are less pupils. It could be that in the next two years they will have to move to a system of 22/23 in reception and then 3 classes of 30 in years 1 and 2. If that is the case then it could be a future infant class size case.
Check with the school exactly what the intention is for next year and year after next for class organisation in the infants and then we can say whether it will be an infant class size case or not. My suspicion is that it will be or there would have been appeals with only 22/23 in the classes.

Thank you for all the help and replies so far.

I have found out that year 1 and year 2 will have a pan of 45 children per year. Two classes one of 22 and one of 23. I know this has my eldest child has been through year 1&2

The only problem is that both the classes dimensions are 51sq metre. Hopefully just another space for one more child.

I have also found out the school is holding a place for a child who's not in the country until next year I assume nothing is illegal has they don't have to start until their fifth birthday.

Is the child they're holding a space for going to start within the current school year? E.g. in the spring or summer term in 2016?

OK so this (probably) isn't an infant class size case. Things that will influence:

-does the IT room only have 45 computers/are there only 45 laptops/IPADS.
-the classroom is small at 51m2. Is there room for another chair/table?
-is the room an awkward shape (e.g. L-shape) so only part of it can be used at one time?
-is there a large unusable area along one side of the room, reducing the area that children can use? (E.g. some schools have partitioned rooms with doors from one to the other, reducing the wall space available)
-is the access to the whiteboard tricky, so that another child may not be able to see the board clearly?
-does the school have a disproportionate number of children with SN/statements/EHCP/EAL/social needs?
-is the school hall under pressure already and struggling to accommodate the chosen when at PAN?
-are the corridors particularly narrow and already struggling to cope with the flow of children?
-Is the music room/library/playground tiny and struggling to accommodate the children already there?

Those are just some of the LA's possible arguments against admitting your child.

You have to convince a panel that your child needs a place so badly that those things or whatever the LA says) are less important than your child getting a place there.

Seems odd that the PAN is an odd number when each year group consists of two classes and classrooms are the same size.

It's quite common to have a 45 PAN with a class split of 22/23

Lougle thanks for that I didn't even contemplate of the issues you have highlighted.

However I'm more worried from the legal perspective other than the class size being smaller than 30 and theres enough space area wise in the class...... is there anything else that could crop up, that I could prepare myself for

Once again thank you for the input

What is your appeal based on though? Did he miss out because you are now out of catchment?

Has your DC2 just started reception or are they due to start in Sept 2016? If the latter, are you sure that you will need to appeal given places haven't been allocated yet? Is the school over subscribed? How far down the allocation list does the school usually get & what order does the list go in (do all siblings, whether in catchment or not, take priority over non-siblings in catchment or do just in catchment siblings take priority over non-siblings in catchment)? As your DC1 is 7, is it easier to do this the other way around & get DC2 a place in a school in your new catchment & then move DC1 to that school as the ICS will no longer apply?

I thought a school was unable to save a place for any child. How do you know a place is being saved for a child who is not in the country until next year? Is that one of the 45 places that has been allocated?
Our LEA got into huge problems for saving places a few years ago.

If several people appeal, the panel will judge how many the school can take and who has the best cases . So you need to say something about this school for your child, not just how the school can take more.

Positive, I think that child is not yet 5 and will be back to take up their space by the term after they turn 5, they have deferred entry until the spring or summer term.

There are separate rules for Forces children and those of diplomats and other qualifying Crown servants, returning from overseas.

And any parent can choose to defer their child's entry (and go wherever they please until the start date).

So you'd need to be very, very sure of your facts about this child if you are trying to demonstrate poor practice by the admissions authority as part of your case.

It states in the appeal letter which I have received.

The appeal panel may only uphold a class size prejudice appeal if:

1. it finds that the admission children would not breach the infant class size or limit.

2. basically if they had LEA made a mistake

3. it decides that the decision to refuse admission was not one of which a reasonable admission authority would of made.

Point one is clear they have two classes one of 22 and one of 23 both being 51sq in dimensions

Point 3 if we were 6miles north from where we currently reside we would of come under a different admissions authority who give priority to siblings over catchment area.

I will need to appeal on these basis.

That'snotmyhouse - I do not wish to unsettle my 7year old has he will be doing extra work for his 11plus soon.

The head of school informed me they are saving a space for a child who will start next year there is nothing illegal about this has the child doesn't have to start until their fifth birthday.

Screwdriver- my 7 year old who is a summer born baby was struggling in maths has he was one of the youngest kids in his class with this schools support he has rose from being the poorest in class to the most strongest in maths....there are numerous other issues where I can state that this school is the one for my younger child.

However I want to cover the legal aspect of the case...

Lots of muddled thinking in that letter.

You need to get them to state clearly whether the appeal will be held under ICS rules. The Three reasons they list are are relevant to all appeals, It's just that under ICS they are the only three, but if non-ICS then balance of prejudice can be used too.

And I suspect they know that, as things like size of classroom just don't come in to ICS appeals.

And the point about the LA where you live - or any LA anywhere - having different rules is totally irrelevant. All that matters are the criteria in force at the specific school, whether they have been correctly applied (and then balance of prejudice).

On the information posted this is not an ICS case. It would be an ICS case if they run 3 classes of 30 covering Y1 and Y2 or if they have decided to do so in future. But if you are correct that they have 2 classes in each year and no intention of changing this is not an ICS case.

You will not win your appeal on the basis of classroom sizes. That may help to show that the school can handle more pupils but it is very unlikely to be enough on its own to win a case.

The fact that another LA gives higher priority to siblings is not relevant to your case at all. It does not make your LA's decision unreasonable. Your LA is entitled to set whatever admission criteria they want as long as they comply with the Admissions Code. The appeal panel will not be interested in this argument at all.

You need to make a case as to why your child will be disadvantaged if they don't get a place at this school. Simply wanting the same school as your older child is very unlikely to be enough.

From the information you have given this is a potentially winnable appeal provided you approach it in the right way. Unfortunately at the moment you are approaching it in the wrong way. Unless you make a case that your child will be disadvantaged if they don't get a place at this school it is unlikely you will win.

The head of school informed me they are saving a space for a child who will start next year there is nothing illegal about this has the child doesn't have to start until their fifth birthday.

That depends on when the child will start. If by "next year" they mean by the start of the summer term they are right. If they mean next autumn they are wrong. A school cannot keep a place free for a full year.

I agree with Prh. You need to get it right out of your head that the LA are unreasonable. Unreasonable in the legal sense means 'so perverse that no ordinary person could have made this decision in light of the facts' or thereabouts. An example would be allocating a school to a child whose parent is a police officer, when the school in question has a parent who has threatened to harm the officer. Or a social worker who works in the area served by the school, etc. It isn't 'they're unreasonable because siblings should be able to go together'.

You're going to need to have done some homework because your arguments seem, so far, to be: 1.'he needs to be with his brother' and 2.'this is a good school'.

1. Will fail because:

• there are thousands of siblings who are separated.

-You moved out of catchment so caused the separation. -if they were at a infant/junior school they'd be separated anyway. -many parents have to drop to two locations.

1. Will fail because:

-the panel can't make a judgement on 'how good' a school is -what would that say to parents at the school in question?

So your appeal has to be focused on why this school is necessary for your DS.

You can't rely on the usual 'needs a local peer group' because you're seeking to take him away from the local peer group. So you'll need to look at what provisions this school has that are different or 'other' from other schools. You'll have to demonstrate that these are important for your child (e.g. a nurture group for a very shy child, or an extra-curricular provision that is particularly key for the child).

I have to say that I think you'd struggle to do that, given that your child is 4 years old.

You could say that you can't provide after school play because you have to travel to the older child's school, but the logical response would be to move the older child closer to home.

Be prepared for a question about whether there is a school with places for both children, if you go down the line of separation being a bad thing.