What sort of maths problems does/did your child get in Year 2?

[HumpheadWrasse]

My DS is just turning 7 and just gone into Year 2. He has been completely flummoxed by his maths homework over the past couple of nights and got a bit upset. I'd like a sense check as to whether the problems are hard or whether he is not where he should be for his age and I should be concerned. We are not in UK, a lot of the kids in his class seem very bright indeed and so it's difficult for me to judge what would be 'normal' back home.

Maths homework questions are things like, 'what is the difference between 67 and 48?' DS doesn't seem to have a clue and will guess answers like '51' when asked.

Also any tips on strategies I could use to help him would be gratefully appreciated!

I don't think you should do a sense check with UK standard if you are not in UK. The most important is what has he been taught in your current country. Your DS won't feel better even if he was told that most UK children can't do this sort of questions. It matters what his current classmates can do.

Have you just moved to this country? I would suggest you talk to his teacher and also find a year 1 math text book to check if there are any gaps you need to help him to fill up.

The question itself is not difficulty, it is only a simple 67-48=19, I think a year 2 children in Y2 England should be able to work out this using number line here. But for mental math, some children may not master it yet.

However, some children may not get used to the word question type, like your son , may need to practice how to transfer this word question into 67-48. You can practice with simple version, like what is the difference between 4 and 9 first to get him understand the question, then increase it to difference between 14 and 17, then harder.

I would suggest you to help him with his math homework at the moment, then you can find out what he need to practice and practice it with him.

What is the reason for using "difference between" to mean subtraction - it's a very woolly thing.

The "difference between 4 and 9" is not a simple thing - is the answer -5 as it would be if it just meant subtract, or is it 5 as it would be if it was the normal use of English.

There are lots of different terminology used in everyday language and one of the aims of primary maths is to ensure children recognise all those different wordings.

Add, Sum, Total, more, +
Difference, subtract, less, -
Multiplied by, of, lots of, x
Divide, shared between, /

There are loads more variations in my DD's school planner (but it's at school)

OP, I would suggest getting a 100 square poster.

I'm not sure which Country you're in or how you were taught maths, but I know with me I was taught completely differently to how they are now teaching my (also just started in Y2) DD.

When my DD was working out +10 sums I had no idea what she was doing, until at Parents Evening the teacher began talking about the 100 square. I bought a poster from the Early Learning Centre and now it all makes sense. When they add up they use a number line and/or 100 square. If my DD was to work out your example she would do this:

Start at 48, then jump down a line to 58 and then again to 68, giving 20. She would then move back a square to 67. She knows that 20-1=19 so that is her answer.

Because they are using this on a daily basis she is now visualising the 100 square and can do some of these sums in her head. The 100 square is such a clever way of learning, I'm sure I would have been better at Maths if we had that method when I was learning!

Having said that, it seems quite a difficult sum for a child in the first couple of weeks of Y2. DD hasn't had anything like that yet, we've been doing some of the Carol Vorderman books at home and that's the only reason I know how she works them out!

HTH

But TeenAndTween "difference between" is only used in primary maths - it's not used in any maths beyond that, it's not something that's needed to know for future knowledge, so why? Why not use subtract?. And it's a woolly term - none of your other examples are woolly.

Except possibly shared between, which might want an evenly in there, but that's much more of a push.

I think the difference between 4 and 9 is the same as difference between 9 and 5. I don't think the question itself is intend to use 'difference between' to mean substraction, but to ask children to think how to work out the difference, you can use subtraction to work out the difference.

English is not my first language, so I guess I may not express this clearly. I guess OP DS's school may ask children to do lots of word questions, these are harder than a simple 67-48 questions.

Like I once asked my DS in Y1 a question, think about a number, if take away 4 you will get 3, what number it is. He at first can't get it, even it is a very simple one,because he doesn't know what he need to do. Once he understand what the question is asking for , he can get it quickly.

That's quite normal for a year 2 maths question in the UK.

Ha. DS1 is 7, and is in Year 2 but is coming towards the end of it now (we're in Australia).

A few weeks ago he had a similar set of maths questions - but in monetary terms. So he was given pics of various items with different prices and then the questions - one of which is "what is the difference between the highest and lowest cost item?" well the poor little bugger couldn't work out what the hell that meant - I had to explain it to him in very simple terms, because it was a printed worksheet taken from a central website, and he hadn't been taught "what is the difference" to mean "Subtract one amount from the other". It took a while to get it through to him as well (he started to tell me the actual physical differences between a pot plant and a cake...)

In terms of the actual maths (67-48) - again that's something they did in the last few weeks (so second half of the school year again) - taking away and needing to borrow from the number to the left - so it's definitely within the remit of this year's syllabus but not at the beginning for us.

Strategies? FIrst of all, talk to the teacher and see what the aims for the year are, where they think he should be by the end of it, and what books/syllabus they're using. Find out where the homework comes from - like I said, a lot of the maths we've had this year has been from a central website (and you would not BELIEVE the crap one we had on 2D and 3D shapes - that's been struck off the list because it was so shit!!)
Also, if your DS is struggling, there's no harm in checking with the teacher where he/she thinks he is in terms of class level.

Fred, 'difference between, is quite usefull in the real life , don't you think? Like there are 2 teams working, could you please let me know the difference between Number of team A worker and team B worker? Nobody would ask could you please subtract team A worker number and team B worker. As anyone should know to use subtract to get the difference. Thatn's these sorts of word questions' function, to let children know how to apply the math sentence they learn.

Sorry, got carried away and pressed post too soon.

It's important to go via the teacher because the teaching strategies they seem to use these days don't always gel with what we may have learnt in school - and my DS (and several others in his class) take everything they're told very literally, so if you do it differently to the teacher (or how he's being taught to do it) then it might confuse him, but is also likely to lead to conflict because he might have been told NOT to do it that way.

I discovered this when DS1 was doing the subtractions - he was having issues with 14 - 5, coming out with 8 instead of 9 - so I said to him "check it on your fingers" and he said "NO! We're "not allowed" to use our fingers, we have to think about it in our brains!" Which translated as the teacher telling them that they should try to do the sums without using their fingers but just do them in their heads, which is fair enough - but as I said to DS1, if you're not sure of the answer after you've thought of it in your head, then you can still use your fingers to check whether or not you're right.

Cloud2 - exactly you're restating my point though - that you expect difference between to mean the difference (larger number minus smaller number regardless of the other they're given).

But this isn't how I understand primary maths to be using the term:
see here:
mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/69177.html
Hence this is a difference between the use you would get in the workplace from normal English, and the use in primary maths.

Yes, DS1 would have done this last year, in year 1 with a 100 square.

fred I don't think that the link you used is how it would be considered in primary maths, certainly at infant level.

I believe in primary it is taken to mean the larger minus the smaller.

Thanks everyone, this is really useful feedback. Thumbwitch, that made me smile because trying to tell me the actual difference between them is exactly what DS did at first ('well, one starts with a six...'). Problem is, even when I just told him that it meant 67-48 he was still stumped on how to work it out.

Letustryagain, yes he used a 100 square poster in the UK which I'd just about got my head around, I think they teach a different method again here, but DS says he 'can't remember' what it is.

It sounds from what you're all saying that the questions are within the realms of normal, which is useful for me to understand even if it's not that helpful for DS. I'm a bit nervous of making an appointment with his class teacher but I guess that is the best next step.

Don't be nervous - although I can't answer for your DS's teachers, I've always found my DS's teachers to be very happy to discuss issues, they're just glad I'm taking an interest!

I agree with Teen, in primary maths it is always taken to mean subtracting the smaller from the larger whichever way round the numbers are written.

That's the understanding children will need in real life situations. The aim is to get them to understand that in order to find the difference between two numerical values in any context, you use your subtraction skills to subtract the smaller from the larger.

Is it the ability to subtract one 2-digit number from the other, understanding the concept of difference or a combination of both that is causing the issue?

Good, thanks Teen / Rafa - Thanks for explaining that my confusion was from odd uses elsewhere - maybe the North American schools do it different as per the maths forum link? And sorry to HumpheadWrasse for hijacking the thread a bit, it had just reminded me.

I think it's taught that way precisely because it is so commonly used in everyday English so children need to understand what is meant by it.

Just a note 100 squares (number lines etc) won't be permitted in the new national curriculum tests.

Fred your link is to an American site so not pertinent.
In Y2 finding the difference can mean counting on from the small number to the larger or subtracting the small from the larger.

The fact that the website is American doesn't make it wrong, or not pertinent.

Technically speaking - the difference between numbers 5 and 7 -- can be done as |5-7| or |7-2| and both of these are equal to 2, the absolute value (or modulus) of the sum in between the lines - |...|

However -- the above paragraph is indeed not pertinent here, because we are talking about primary school children.

I do believe that the kids in primary school should be able to understand different ways of asking math questions because that would mean that they actually understand the underlying concepts. And that will allow the child to pick the correct operation (+, -, x) to solve them.

Best way to demonstrate the difference to the kid is with sweets (lol). Take 5 for yourself, and give him 7. Ask what is the difference between your amounts. He will quickly realise how to do it. And, as most of them at this age are not familiar with negative numbers, they would naturally subtract smaller number from the larger. Or, they might count on from the smaller number.

mrz - the OP is not in the UK either so your comment is unnecessary.

Is the OPs child in an American school? If so why ask about Y2 and not G1?

My apologies Thumb my comment should have read
Fred your link is to an American Uni site so isn't pertinent ...

I don't know where the OP's child is, tbf, but it's likely to be a Northern Hemisphere school where English is spoken (given that he's only just gone into Y2), and the OP is from the UK so probably why she called it Y2 - the school could be American, the OP hasn't said.

But if the site is for an American Uni, then yes, probably less pertinent!

The link had a mathematical definition of a differences between numbers. It wasn't linked to a curriculum, or geography.

In her follow up messages OP was also asking why the difference can't be calculated as 5-7, etc.

And the answer - it can be, just not in primary school in any geography...