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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Grammar on the curriculum Year 4?

28 replies

fishoils · 11/09/2015 11:11

I'm worried that my son doesn't know much grammar, apart from full stops, commas and capital letters ...

He's in Year 4. I didn't learn much grammar at school, so don't feel much help.

His school appears to me not to teach the kids much and they let the parents fill in what seem to be huge gaps and holes. Most of these I've been on top of. But not the grammar one.

Could anyone point me to somewhere that tells me what DS should know grammar wise by now?

Thank you.

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TeenAndTween · 11/09/2015 11:42

I can't help with the specifics, but with the NC changes introduced last year there is much more emphasis on grammar than in previous years. So they definitely should be doing more last year and this year than previously.

The change in content of DD2's English homework last year was significant (she's just gone to y6). It will be beneficial, and help with MFLs later.

DD1 had to learn English grammar alongside learning French.

Bunnyjo · 11/09/2015 12:56

I found this site is quite informative. This Gov.uk pdf is also helpful.

My DD is also year 4 and she has been learning about pronouns this week. However, I was surprised to hear that she was also learning about collective nouns, abstract nouns and concrete nouns, count nouns and mass nouns.

She is in a mixed Year 4, 5 and 6 class, so I'm not sure whether that has a bearing on some of the concepts she is learning.

Original poster

fishoils · 11/09/2015 16:13

It all seems too much to me!

We use a site called ixl to practise maths and they've just introduced English. I looked at the English site (its free to use if for short amounts of time) and felt sick when I saw what they are supposed to know - presuming ixl have got it right ...

I didn't learn much grammar at all - so its all gobbledy gook to me. But also I can't imagine 8 year olds learning all of this - alongside all the other stuff they have to remember. The school day seems so short. How do they fit all this stuff in?

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Original poster

fishoils · 11/09/2015 16:19

Well one site reassured me it wasn't too much Bunnyjo.

And then the government site scared me again when I saw what they had to learn in all the other subjects.

I think the reason I am feeling so jumpy about all of this is that, as mentioned before, our school is very relaxed. Its lovely that they are relaxed, actually. But I can't imagine how they fit all this stuff in. It seems so much more since the new curriculum was introduced. Too much!

OP posts:

Geraniumred · 11/09/2015 16:29

It isn't too hard to teach the basics, should you wish to do so. Learning how to use paragraphs and speech marks would be useful and also how to deal with abbreviated words (shouldn't, wasn't, don't).
'Eats shoots and leaves' by Lynne Truss explains it all for adults.
I tutor English ages 7-18 and grammar appears to be a real difficulty for many children - including otherwise competent A level students.

mrz · 11/09/2015 17:31

You can be relaxed and teach grammar well. It's much easier to start early and build knowledge over the years than trying to cram it in a couple of years. Next year there will be a grammar test in Y2 so schools really need to get their acts together.

BoboChic · 11/09/2015 17:34

Geraniumred - grammar is a real problem for a lot of teachers. Sadly. So it is not surprising that DC struggle.

Millymollymama · 11/09/2015 18:13

My LA has put on Grammar courses for primary teachers. Many feel they are not up to speed regarding grammar teaching. I think grammar is important and a little every year is a good idea. I have a DD who is very keen on grammar - she is a linguist!

Geraniumred · 11/09/2015 20:17

It can be taught in fun ways too. Pie Corbett's 'Jumpstart Grammar' is wonderful. I think many primary school teachers are actually a little frightened of it, as though it is a veiled mystery that is slightly beyond them, but it isn't hard to learn. I'm glad the LA is doing courses in grammar.

mrz · 11/09/2015 20:58

my father was a stickler for correct grammar and was constantly correcting my grammar school English teachers

vodkanow · 11/09/2015 22:36

Fish oils you can order a CGP KS2 English Grammar guide and it will solve all your problems. It's easy to read, clear, concise and covers the curriculum.

Bolograph · 11/09/2015 22:52

'Eats shoots and leaves' by Lynne Truss explains it all for adults.

Proper grammarians would laugh hollowly at that. There's an amusing take-down from the other side of the Atlantic:

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/06/28/bad-comma

But if you have time to read to, David Crystal's response is well worthwhile:

www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/sep/03/books.booksnews

CheesecakeDreams · 11/09/2015 22:54

Is there really going to be a grammar test in yr 2 next year? :( crap. Dd is going to fail spelling reading writing and the phonics test this year (yr 1) and I fear will have an uphill battle to do grammar next year as well!

Sorry for hijack!

CocktailQueen · 11/09/2015 22:58

There has been a big big push on grammar in primaries over the past few years. Sounds like your ds should have done more.

DS is in Year 4 and is learning time connectives and personification (not strictly grammar but English) at the mo.

rollonthesummer · 11/09/2015 22:58

Dd is going to fail spelling reading writing

What do you mean by this?

In Year 1?!

CocktailQueen · 11/09/2015 22:59

There are loads of revision guides for the various key stages that you can buy. Have a look at Rising Stars books or Schofield & Sims. Will have a look in the morning and post again.

CheesecakeDreams · 11/09/2015 23:12

Sorry. Was being a bit silly. She cannot read or write. She is on red books, yet as of today they are doing spelling tests each week. Which is pointless as she can neither read not write the words! :/ It is stressing her out and she is even more reluctant to read or write than ever before.

CheesecakeDreams · 11/09/2015 23:15

She can't even sound out a cvc word and I know from my son before her that they will not help. I do what I can but she is not an only child so I am limited in time.

Geraniumred · 11/09/2015 23:15

Proper grammarians are unlikely to need the book, Bolograph, but thank you for the links. I really enjoyed David Crystal's book on spelling and now use a bit of etymology when explaining hard to spell words.

Ferguson · 11/09/2015 23:22

Bolograph - I LOVE Lynne Truss' books, and frequently recommend them on similar 'threads'!

Americans may do things a little differently, and some may just be too clever for their own good. (I don't think I have ever read anything from The New Yorker before!)

Spelling, grammar and punctuation are not 'set in stone' and are still evolving. When I first read Daphne du Maurier, I was surprised at some of the spellings: 'phone; 'bus; 'pram. And it doesn't seem long ago at all that 'flu became flu.

mrz · 12/09/2015 06:38

Lynne Truss is a writer and journalist who started out as an editor, her books offer a humorous take on grammar rather than being a comprehensive guide.

David Crystal has written a series of books on grammar which are very accessible and cover all aspects. Gwynne's Grammar covers all the basics in a small handbook.

BoboChic · 12/09/2015 06:39

US grammar and UK grammar aren't the same. Commas and sequence of tenses are two areas where school pupils are endlessly confused if they switch between US and UK teachers (which happens in international schools).

mrz · 12/09/2015 06:41

Yes CheesecakeDreams there will be seven test in Y2 including grammar, punctuation and spelling.

KathyBeale · 12/09/2015 06:56

I love grammar. Love it. I even studied it at university. I am a stickler for correct use of grammar in written English (though less so in spoken) and I also love how language changes and develops. I like slang, too.
But the thought of a grammar test in y2 fills me with horror. I HATE all the tests our kids are subjected to.

My older child is in y4 and did a SPAG test last week, which I believe stands for spelling, punctuation, accuracy and grammar. Think it was just so his new teacher could see what level they were at.

BoboChic · 12/09/2015 06:58

Does anyone have a recommendation for a SPAG test for diagnosis purposes at the beginning of year 7?

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