Supporting DD to write - not sure what to do.

[MashaMisha]

DD is just 4, and has sort of taught herself to read and write - mainly by copying older siblings, I think.

She has recently been writing short sentences, or drawing pictures with captions. Eg today she wrote "daddy and momie and DS and DD hav bin on holede [holiday] in fros [France]"

Because she is self taught, she doesn't know that much about spelling - though I think she must be remembering some things that she has read -, and she doesn't respond well (putting it mildly) to being told she has missed out a letter/used the wrong letter etc.

So I tend to just act very enthusiastic at all her efforts. DH thinks we should (gently) point out errors, otherwise she'll assume the incorrect way is right.

I should add that we don't live in an English-speaking country, and she isn't at school yet (and won't be until she is 6), so her only English input is from us as her family, and she won't be learning to read and write in her second language either for another 2 years.

DH doesn't want bad habits to be entrenched; I think she is showing enthusiasm and we should just be enthusiastic in response. I suspect we need the middle ground, but not sure what it is.
She does seem to somehow have a grasp of phonics, as she sits there sounding out words before writing them.

It's exactly the way her peers in Reception will be writing right now. It is strange to me - as I haven't gone through an English system - but kids here start by writing phonetically. Probably to reinforce phonics as a basis of reading.

As their reading develops and they realise that there is more than one way to spell the same sound in English - they will gradually be introduced to a more correct spelling.

So - in this instance your approach is the best. It's great that she is enthusiastic. Correcting her now might put her off. She is doing well! Just keep the books coming.

Thanks - it's that "as their reading develops" bit that actually has DH a bit worried.

We're not teaching her to read, she's doing it all by herself. Since she has decided to do it, does she actually need more direct support and guidance with learning to read from her parents? And if so, how on earth do we go about it?

She definitely doesn't want me to show her, she wants to figure it out herself, which I've been leaving her to do so far. (I do show her things if she asks, which is seldom). I have heard her sound out quite long words, but it is totally on her terms. She is upset and discouraged if she knows she has got it wrong, or if I repeat it correctly . But she often does get it right and then is very proud of herself.

She does already realise, I think that there is more than one way of spelling the same sound - as shown by writing "daddy" and "momie". But she has no way of deciding which one to use in a particular circumstance.

The difference between MashaMisha's DD and her peers is that (hopefully) her peers in the UK will be getting regular phonics instruction so their current spelling will alter as they learn more correspondences and practise the correct spelling of words. Whereas MM's DD won't get that input.

All I can suggest is giving lots of praise for the spelling she has tried and correct by saying something like 'You have spelled all the sounds, brilliant, but in this word the 'x' sound is spelled like this' and write down just the corrected sound spelling for her. Try not to use letter names; just write spellings down or, if you have to, refer to letters by their 'sounds'.

The poster Mrz is much more experienced than me with young children: she may see this and give you some pointers

I'm with the 'keep the books coming' brigade. She will work it out.
Dd2 taught herself to read (we didn't know she could) so I think it's more important to share the reading time than writing at the moment tbh. She will recognise the different words and they will find their way into her writing.

I think unless you have a kid that teaches themselves to read, it's hard to grasp that it's possible without all the accompanying froufrou in school. She will work out the appropriate circumstance from reading more books and seeing how the words are spelled. And that will translate eventually into her writing, because she will know the words.

I'm a bit of a 'correcter' if I'm honest, so do sympathise with your dh.
But the reading will fix most of it.

There are billions of ways kids learn to read and write. The fashions change periodically, but largely the kids all end up in the same place. Enthusiasm and exposure always good.

Madwoman I am inclined to think she will work it out. After all, she has done all right so far.
Tbh her spelling ability for unknown words doesn't really seem that different from older DS, just he knows a lot more words.

But then DH worries about it, and then I think, maybe he is right after all.

I wouldn't have offered any advice if I thought that spelling was as easy for a child to 'pick up' as reading is for a few children ( most need teaching both skills). It isn't easy; it places a far greater load on memory and the physical act of writing 'wrong' spellings tends to promote habitual wrong spelling because muscle memory plays an important part in recalling spellings.

She may be the exceptional child who can work out spellings for herself but some gentle correction won't hurt and will be very helpful if she isn't quite so exceptional.

Maizie - it is true, that her UK based peers are getting formal tuition in phonics, while she is not. However, it is only temporary - OP's poster would start formal schooling, just a bit later. The amount of writing she'd be doing on a daily basis is not comparable to the kids in Reception/Y1 in the UK.
And - on top of that she doesn't seem to be open to her parents actively teaching her at the moment.

So - I still say - don't worry about correcting her. Give her books that can help her "figure it out", as well as read to her. Eventually, she'll notice some words in her writing looking different from the print words. With my Dds it started happening when they stopped sounding out many words and started just reading them.
If that doesn't happen before she starts school - she would no doubt be taught proper spelling there. Or may become more "teachable" at home.

Finally - MM you asked about how you can best help her with phonics. Can you order books from the UK?
If I were you, I'd buy a set of reading books that follow a UK phonics tuition approach. Those books gradually introduce sounds/spelling variations and can help your daughter as she is figuring it out.
With Dd2 I used and loved Jelly and Bean series, as well as Dandelion Launchers/Readers.

Praise he attempts at spelling words and ask her if she knows a different way to spell the sounds at the end of momie /ee/ (she obviously knows in daddy) so she can correct it herself.

Spelling isn't easy in English because we do have many different ways to spell the sounds and it really isn't something that can be left to chance (although it too often is! With the assumption that reading will automatically correct wrong spellings eventually ... The longer you wait the more the incorrect spelling becomes entrenched).

I would teach spelling in reception and I would correct errors but always start by praising (well done that is a way to spell the sound /ee/ can you think of another way? How about the way it's spelt in daddy? Yes that's the spelling we need. How clever are you for knowing two ways ????

This is making me think I should do more spelling practice with older DS too, eek!
His English spelling is definitely a bit ropey - not that he actually writes in English that often anyway.

He doesn't, and DD won't, learn to read or write in English at school until they start learning English as a MFL aged 9.

But DS is at least aware that there are different spelling rules between his 2 languages, and he does tend to be able to keep them separate (he'll say things like "if we were in England, that word would sound like this").

He's a different case from DD, as he is perfectly happy for me to point out errors or correct him, and he actually started reading and writing more fluently in his second language first, by being taught at school by a proper teacher, (rather than his clueless mother), and has managed to make the transition to reading in English too without too much input from me.

I will try Mrz's correction method with both of them.

I can order books from the UK - I will have a look at the Jelly Bean and Dandelion books and see if I can get them from Book Depository.

Dds reading was ahead of her interest in writing, so to a large extent her learning to spell familiar words came from reading iyswim. And I, and her teachers always came from the view at that stage it was better to attempt to spell the word you want and perhaps do it wrong than stick with a safe word you don't want just cos it's one you can spell.
As for incorrect spellings, we never had them. We had 'silly words' that had 'silly spellings'. So I'd say something like well done dd, that does say 'knickers' (eg spelt nikrs) But knickers is a bit of a silly word, and we write it like this...
I did take care to always do more praise than correction though. So the above would start with how lovely her writing was, and praise on the words she'd spelt correctly. And at first stuck more to words she was likely to write regularly so incorrect spellings didn't become habit, rather than correcting too much at once.

It was a very popular belief a few years ago and spelling ability has declined. Spelling needs to be taught at the same time as reading ( decoding for reading and encoding for spelling are the two sides of the same coin) and thats what should be happening in a good phonics lesson.

Mrz - I agree with you that spelling and reading should be taught together, but it only works this way if the child is ready to learn both of the skills or if he is in a formal learning setting.

Both of my Dds started to pick up reading at an early age - at around 3yo they could read simple CVC words and really enjoyed phonic games like Metal Mike, etc. However, they had no interest in writing, and their little hands were not really ready. I had no desire to force them to write at such an early age. So, the little writing that did happen was very creative...

By the time they started Reception both read quite well, so they started to learn spelling only at school. And because reading was almost fluent by then, both realised that they misspelled words, they just didn't know yet how to spell them correctly.

Dd1 is in Y4 now and by now spells pretty well. Dd2 has just started Y1, so we'll see how she develops.

Well, there's no way I can offer a good quality phonics lesson (or even a poor quality one .)

DD is just playing really, it's just she is playing at reading and writing, and seems somehow to be able to do it . I don't especially want to make it all serious and be teaching her.

Anyway, she has been playing with lego and colouring in today, and hasn't written anything, so no chance yet to see how she will respond to any of the suggestions above.

Perhaps the simple games like Metal Mike etc were the problem ...they often are as children are so focused on how to play the purpose gets diluted.

You don't need an interest in writing or even have to write to learn spelling alongside learning to decode words for reading just an interest in words (which presumably any child who wants to learn to read before school has already)

If you have access to BBC TV there are programmes that might help, and some might be available on DVD:

www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/shows/alphablocks

And this book also might be useful:

An inexpensive and easy to use book, that can encourage children with reading, spelling and writing, and really help them to understand Phonics, is reviewed in the MN Book Reviews section. Just search ‘Phonics’ and my name.

If you notice major errors that she repeatedly makes, then maybe point them out; if they are only less frequent, or minor errors, maybe note them down yourself, and 'correct' them when you get a convenient opportunity.

Try to let her ENJOY the reading and writing process for herself, and give her as many suitable books, comics, adverts, brochures etc as possible.

Mrz - seriously?

Playing Metal Mike with my Dds at 3y.o. my "purpose" was to have fun, and learning to blend/segment sounds happened as a bonus. So the purpose was not diluted.

Yes, it is initially a simple game. But adding cards with words to sound out takes it to the next level. It gave my kids great satisfaction to be able to read real words before starting on reading books.

I don't think there is only one way for kids to learn to read, even while using phonics. Especially if those kids are very young.

MM - you don't need to worry about giving a "quality phonics lesson" - just give her books and answer questions when she asks.

I was intrigued when in a reception class a few years ago - the teacher encouraged the children to write, ask them to read it out & then decide she wanted to copy it in her writing too. Didn't matter if the child was just doing squiggles or if they'd attempted to spell it with proper letters, she always wanted to copy it, as if it were the best thing ever written! The idea obviously was that the children would see how to write it properly & learn from that but their little faces just lit up at how excited she was to be copying something they'd written! Might work for your DD as a subtle form of correction without discouraging her.

Absolutely seriously MM

We don't teach sounds in isolation so right from the first day children are reading and spelling simple words. No writing required!

Mrz - so, you really do not recognise the difference between what YOU do AT SCHOOL - where the purpose is to follow a program, show progress, etc.,
As opposed to parents having fun and encouraging pre-school children AT HOME?

These two situations are not the same. No need to stress out the OP by making her think that she needs to follow phonics lesson plans with her 4yo!...

MashaMisha

Your daughter and u are doing absolutely fine.
Don't worry about doing enough phonics or spelling practice with her, because in English phonics is of limited use anyway, especially for spelling. Learning the main patterns is easy, but the 4,000+ words which don't quite obey them (too, zoo - two/to, blue, shoe, flew, through) children simply have to imprint on their minds somehow. Any method that works is fine, but it comes down mainly to lots of reading and writing practice.

Children who are able to teach themselves to read and write without phonics lessons, as your daughter seems to be doing (and as mine did) have an enormous advantage.

As the song says: Don't worry, be happy! Everything will be alright.

Of course I realise there is a difference between teaching a class and teaching your own child but the principles remain exactly the same. Spelling can't be left to chance or Metal Mike whether at home or school !