Data question relating to GLD and KS1 results.

[pickledsiblings]

If a school has 80% of their EYFS cohort with a good level of development (GLD) at the end of YR and the National picture is closer to 50%, would you expect the KS1 sats results to be significantly higher than National the following year?

I suspect that my DS goes for days at school without even having a conversation with his teacher (I've just asked him and it seems so). I also think that most of the talking that goes on between him and his teacher is initiated by him (asking for clarification etc.).

Some time ago (a few years) our HT spoke about nurture groups in the classroom and how 'helicoptering' by teachers was of very little effect. So instead of the teacher milling around whilst the DC are working they are working intensively with a small group (usually less able DC).

At the time I thought that what she said made sense but now I'm thinking again and wondering if the lack of dialogue with DC (usually the more able) may actually be an important factor.

Thanks for chatting this through mrz.

Perhaps your head has a different definition of "helicoptering" - but IMHO always having an adult attached (teacher or teaching assistant) is very different to the teacher working with the whole class

I've just been chatting with my boys about this (8 and 11) and they have interesting ideas.

DS2 He thinks that the teacher talks to other pupils in the class so that they can be helped to catch up and move up a group. The others in the meantime can't go forward as that's what next year is for. He reckons that he (and the others in his group) should be in group 7 (there are only 4 groups with 4 being for the most able).

DS1 says that I have missed the point and that teaching is about all children reaching a certain set standard. If you are already at that standard you just hover around it (they both spoke about hovering).

Both of them were shocked when I said that teachers want all children to reach their potential and to move on to more and more challenging things.

I was the kind of teacher that walked around the room a lot and engaged all children in conversation to get a better idea of their understanding and misconceptions etc. (science/secondary). That's what this HT means by 'helicoptering'. I should have asked her for the research.

We don't ability group

I am really pleased to hear that mrz.

We had a MAST teacher at school who left and I'm sure part of the reason was because of the HT's insistence on ability grouping.

Helicoptering usually refers to the habit of hovering around a child or group of children not working with a whole class.

By the heads definition all our staff helicopter - working with all children every lesson

Working with all children every lesson on a 1:1 level mrz?

It might be 1-1 if a child needs more input if they are struggling or if they need stretching but in general just ensuring everyone understands and is on task, questioning, offering suggestions, checking understanding, encouraging ....etc etc

On the one hand OP makes it sound like she did almost nothing to raise her son's level except 'raise expectations'. On the other hand (sorry, this was somehow familiar) she did a lot to try to boost his ability here.

I don't see how as a governor you can make reconcile what school "should" achieve with what happens when a parent takes a very active interest and sets expectations according to what older siblings did, and then gets hold of loads of targeted material and encourages child to work thru it all. The school results just happen to benefit from the type of parents. Probably happens a lot with popular schools.

I once observed a lesson that my DS1 was in. I was shocked to see a TA helping him 1:1 with some very straightforward maths that I knew he was more than capable of doing.

When I asked him about it that evening he said that he'd got the question wrong because he'd set it out in an untidy manner (it was a large addition sum done on a mini white board) and he didn't know how to tell the TA that he didn't need her help any more once he'd worked out where he'd gone wrong. She spent over 10 minutes with him!

Anyway, I'm not sure what point I'm making really other than there must be something that can be done to ensure DC like mine get the most from their school experience in this part of East Anglia. Teach First are moving in to the area, perhaps that will help, who knows?

lijkk what did you read there that I didn't mention here? I may have bought the Usborne write your own story books but they were never used. DS2 wrote one story about a ghost iirc :)

I did what I said I did. On the one hand it baffles me how that was enough and on the other I know that it made a tangible difference in lots of ways.

Oh, I also bought practice SATs papers and after doing one or two comprehensions I gave up because they were v. easy for DS. There aree unopened papers.

That's my point really - he was already capable of more - it just wasn't expected of him.

I want the school to have higher expectations of all its pupils. They do a fantastic job in terms of behaviour expectations and things like meta cognition and other soft skills but they fall down on the academic side. And they are wringing their hands at all the additional material they will have to cover for the new curriculum - not once has it been alluded to that there will be more for the more able to get their teeth into.

lijkk you've riled me now so I'm multiple posting in a frenzy.

I am fortunate to have older children to compare my DC3 to. I worry for the other parents that don't and nod happily as the school tells them their child is on target for a 'nationally expected level'. I've said it before, but how many of these parents realise that that means they are on target for a grade C in their GCSEs? Not many of them I bet!

I worry for the other parents that don't and nod happily as the school tells them their child is on target for a 'nationally expected level'. I've said it before, but how many of these parents realise that that means they are on target for a grade C in their GCSEs? Not many of them I bet!

^^APPLAUSE

Nothing wrong with a grade C, but many children have the ability and, potentially, the academic inclination to get Bs or As. It's wrong for even a primary school to hold them back by failing to match their teaching AND their expectations to these students' potential.

Teach First are moving in to the area, perhaps that will help, who knows teach first are a cheap way of getting hold of temporary short term staff and grinding them into the dust in a short space of time.

The are the equivalent to the old "licensed" teachers, except that they are not expected to remain in teaching, where as the old licences were long term.

Pickled- I totally understand your concerns. I am not a teacher so I can't help you with your questions, but I could have written your post about your ds. I had the same issue. Last parents evening had glowing report with a mild comment about how he doesn't apply himself as well as he could. When I asked what level he is expected to be on at end of year, it was the same he had started the year on and they weren't bothered. When I looked at his books I was staggered at the poor quality of work, but more surprised that noone was really concerned. He is an 'able learner' so he is on target for expected levels and that seemed to be enough. Not ensuring he reached his potential and not making sure he didn't get into bad learning habits at this age. Like you, I undertook very similar work at home. I have seen a marked difference in how he applies himself. Don't know yet if its translating into school work- might be too late for this year, but should help him have better grounding for next year. But I was surprised that school were happy to let him carry on coasting and hadn't talked to me properly about it. I think there are some things that could be done but I know how clobbered the teachers are at the moment with constant shifting goal posts set by the government. I know that doesn't answer your questions, but I do understand your frustrations!

Pickledsiblings you wrote: "I bought some simple handwriting books and he worked through them (2 small books) on his own. I also bought a Schofield and Simms spelling workbook which was just like more handwriting practice but reinforcing correct spelling patterns."

I have no idea if my comment applies to your school, but in some schools this sort of thing would be regarded as inappropriate, because it smacks of "drill and kill" (shorthand for the idea that "drilling" (a pejorative word for practice) kills the enthusiasm for learning). At various periods, some schools have gone so far as to ban worksheets for this reason.

Indeed kesstrel, the head has been very anti handwriting practice for some time now beyond a cursory few pages to those that are struggling to develop their writing in KS2.

DS2s Y2 teacher (the one that left) made the point that when their handwriting is neat it is easier for DC to see if a word looks right spelling wise. That made sense to me and to DS2 :). He was happy to work on his handwriting for a few minutes after breakfast and very quickly began to take a real pride in it (mainly when it got better that DS1's and DH's).

The LA advised more work on handwriting last year which imo is a good thing and something that Independent schools most definitely do (ime).

Have you looked at the new curriculum pickled?

inmyplace thanks for your post. I challenged our HT a few years ago and agin more recently about targets for more able students, suggesting that if they had already reached aged related expectations there should be an additional structure in place that they can (should?) progress through.

Yes mrz, v. pleased to see a greater emphasis on handwriting :).

You might be interested in this www.teachingleaders.org.uk/primary-case-study-hitting-the-wall/

Thanks mrz. Is there really that much extra content in L6? It seemed about right for 2 eldest DC.

DD (Y9) has a sound grasp of maths and I taught her the circle theorems in about 20mins. So much of it was logical to her (yet many of her friends were struggling with it). I gave her the chance to work most of it out for herself and I think that may have made a difference.