Y3 appeal grounds

[afussyphase]

After various issues with the school, none dire, but forming a pattern, I wanted to ask the appeals experts on here about Y3 appeals. I know they aren't infant class size any more at Y3, and that it's necessary to show that the child is more disadvantaged by not attending than the school is by having to admit an additional child. But I am not sure how this is done!

I'll try to be short and to the point:
-- DD (now Y2) is very able in maths and I think music and science. Current school apparently at one point had her on the G&T list for maths, writing, design/technology (ie art) and science but as far as I can tell this means exactly nothing.
-- Highly sought-after (rated Outstanding) school about 0.35 miles away has excellent strengths in maths, music and art. We barely missed the distance and DD is at a school about 0.5 miles from us (less sought-after and with Ofsted comments that it should improve how it meets the needs of the more able); overall Ofsted Good. Outstanding school is of course full. DD is now 19th on the waiting list
-- Perhaps not relevant but people move near this school (to get in, I presume) and then move out. Many in DD's year apparently come by bus or train. I imagine we are closer than many in the year, now.
-- Outstanding school had a bulge class in 2013 so is probably even more than usually full, presumably limiting the chance of an appeal working.

If we did try to appeal for Y3 for the outstanding school, what kinds of documentation could be used to show that DD has educational needs that this school would be particularly good at meeting?

What you need to be doing is saying what it is about the preferred school which suits your daughter and is not available at your present school or other local schools.

The reality is that there is an assumption (which I know is incorrect) that all schools can give all pupils a good education. So saying that the current education is not good enough is unlikely to be a successful appeal. You could argue that your child had been considered G & T but the current school have done nothing to improve your daughter whereas you know that the preferred school does. Not sure, myself, that I would be happy to admit solely on that but other panels may.

You need to be finding other reasons. One could well be that the preferred school is the local and nearest school from what you say. In which case you could argue that her circle of friends would be increased if she went to the local school. But you need to be looking at anything else that the preferred school do.

If you are going to appeal, you need to time the application to the school at a time that means that you can ask for a year 3 place for September and when rejected can appeal this side of the summer holiday. That would normally be apply middle to end of June. If you leave it to year 3 in September you might well find that there have already been appeals and somebody may have got a place, which would then reduce your chances of success.

Thank you -- I really didn't know about the timing and it sounds like it's tight.
The preferred school has strengths in maths and music and I could find out, for example, what they do (maths specialist teacher, several music teachers I think, 3 pianos at the school or whatever) to support these strengths; the current school doesn't have these.
I could also provide details of what DD was doing at what times -- eg she noticed that some numbers aren't in the times tables so we talked about prime numbers and showed her teacher ( this was in Y1 when she was 5 1/2; she was very excited that they were going to do times tables, which they never really did), she has a pass in grade 1 piano and reads music... The desired school is very good at stretching able students and the current school isn't stretching her and she is regularly bored.
But I agree that we can't argue that the current school can't meet her needs; I'm sure they could if they wanted to change how they manage more able students. But I don't see any trajectory of change on this (and I'm a parent governor).
What kind of appeal/documents/argument have you seen that does go forward and could make the basis of a strong appeal, if any?

Oh also we have already asked for a place in the sense that we are on the waiting list (for both DC but DD2 in YR and there is no chance she'd get a place by Sept). So when would i need to appeal?
Also how should I approach it? My inclination is to meet with the Head of the preferred school, if she would give the time for it, and just be straightforward and see what she thinks ...

Before we go any further please can you confirm what the published admission number for the preferred school is because whilst your elder child is Y3, the younger child starting in September could be a major problem. If as I suspect the PAN is 30 or 60 then the Reception age child will be subject to the infant class size regs. Bottom line you will not win an appeal and be able to move the younger child. So how would you cope with two young children at different schools, even assuming you could win the year 3 appeal?

Thanks, yes, good points. The PAN must be 60; it's a 2-form entry that is always over-subscribed. It's London (zone 2) so there is quite a bit of turnover (a couple per year from what I gather).
What we would hope for is that DD2 would be at or near the top of the list as a sibling, and would get a place there within a year; during that time we'd usually each drop one child off, or, happily, the times are staggered and it would be possible (if not too convenient) to drop one at 8:55 for 9am and the other at 9:15 if one parent was away.
Since we've now had years of one in school and one with 3 days at a workplace nursery on the other side of zone 2, dropping both off locally even if not at the same school seems easier. Though obviously if they remained at the current school we wouldn't have to do that, and that's an advantage.
I am really not sure what to do. Preferred school seems lovely, has these specific strengths which are a very good match, and it seems clear that this year, the current school isn't meeting DD's needs. Whether it would in other years I can't predict. Whether we'd even stand a chance at appeal I don't know. And there's another school which we also didn't get into, but we are higher up on the list; it is in between in that it's not as reputedly strong as the school I described, but seems better with the more able than our current school. I don't think we could win any appeal there, though, because there aren't specific strengths in maths, music, or areas we might be able to demonstrate that DD has specific needs. If you see what I mean.

We moved last April - we put DD's name down - she has been place 1 - then 2 on a wait list (I'm guessing someone moved closer) ...

for a year.. a whole year.. we are currently going through an appeal - for DD (DS got a place at the infants.. she should get in as a sibling - but may not.. its stressful!)

Make sure 2 kids at two locations - is doable -its caused a huge amount of stress here.. good luck .

I know this may sound like a cop out but my first inclination would be to talk to the school you are at presently. You say that you are a parent governor so maybe it would be best if partner ( I am assuming you have one here) was to go into school and ask specifically about why daughter is not being pushed in her studies and why when she is supposed to be G & T nothing is arranged for her. If you go the dividing line between parent and parent governor may get blurred and misinterpreted.

To be brutal the school needs to be doing something about their high achievers or they are going to find themselves on the wrong end of an Ofsted inspection. As a parent governor have you not had any conversations about this at governing body meetings as you should have done?

Yes, I have brought that up as a governor, and they are aware of it but I haven't seen plans in place to change what they have done in the past -- which they acknowledge hasn't been a strength. I will continue to ask.
But I am very aware of the need to keep the distinction between asking questions as a governor and discussing my own DC, and as you suggest, my partner does do some of it. We will continue to try to work with the school on these matters. But sometimes (you may have seen my homework thread) it seems like it's a matter of going in with another question, concern or comment very frequently. I'm concerned that the school doesn't have a high-ability cohort in this year, and that they don't have a culture of stretching the more able. They may, rightly, focus their efforts on DC who need more urgent help, and while this isn't the best for our DC it may be a good overall strategy for the school. The school is rated Good and has been the past two inspections.
The reason I started this thread was to see if anyone could help me with what kinds of things would make a reasonable case for an appeal to the other school. Please do be blunt; if we don't have a case, we don't want to waste anyone's time!

There is always a level of sense in appealing for a place at the school. I think you do have a weak case but at year 3 that is not necessarily an issue. If there is a history of taking some extra pupils above the PAN of 60 in year 3, panel members will always be aware of this and therefore will look to admit where appropriate.So it could be about being in the right place at the right time. The right time to appeal for a year 3 place is the middle of June. I would do it because you will be well miffed if you do not and then you found out that others applied and got in on appeal.
From the information that you have given I am not sure what else you could include in your case.

Right. That makes sense. Do you think it is a good idea to approach the head teacher and explain the situation and why we may wish to appeal, and see what their response is?

The head teacher cannot support your appeal nor can s/he move you up the waiting list. I therefore don't think approaching them will make any difference.

Thanks, makes sense that the Head couldn't change the situation, but they might be able to give me an idea of the situation at the school re space, whether some DC are leaving for independent, or just give some advice, somehow. I guess it just would feel a little weird to appeal to that school never having met the Head, and would it not be courteous to let them know the situation? We have visited but were toured around (pre-admissions season for YR) by someone else.

It all feels like having to act in a void of information. Some things I can't expect to know: how will DD do if she remains at the current school, vs how will things play out at another school; how do the ofsted reports and reputations actually reflect what people's experiences are; how much are the differences in eg KS2 results just a matter of the parents and different communities in the schools. What do they do at the other school for the "more able"? I am guessing that they have a different spread of abilities and maybe my DD wouldn't be "at the top" there - which could be a good thing. Etc.
But there are some things I think there must be a way of getting more information, by posting here, visiting the school... Do any of you have experience with appealing for a particular school, where it's not a matter of infant class size, there are no official SEN, but where one school has a better match of strength's to a child's abilities than another? Is this possible and what kinds of things even if they don't match our situation it will be helpful to know make a case stronger or weaker?

The admission authority (the school if it is an academy, free school or VA school, the LA otherwise) is required to answer any reasonable question you ask to help prepare for your appeal. They can't help you with opinions or speculation but they can help you with facts.

To strengthen your case you need to identify specific things the appeal school offers that are missing from the allocated school and that would be particularly relevant for your daughter. So if, for example, your daughter is interested in music and/or musically talented and the appeal school has lots of extracurricular musical activities that would be worth including.

Thanks! Yes, music and maths are the strengths of the school that match DD's (apparent) talents and interests. Great to know that the LA, in this case, would need to answer specific questions -- in our case these would (I guess?) be things like the music provision (eg specialist music teachers, time on music), and the maths provision - again I think our preferred school has maths specialists and our current school doesn't.
What would we need to say about DD to document or illustrate the claim we'd be making that she has particular strengths in or interests in these areas? Art is another potential one (not sure she is especially brilliant or how to show this, but she's very interested, is not being developed in that direction, and the preferred school has an artist in residence).

To be honest the panel will accept at face value that you believe that your child has an interest in X and Y. What they certainly will not be interested in is a level 1 music certificate or 25 metre swimming certificate, that will just turn them off. If you have something that is at regional or national level then that is good evidence but anything less than that the panel will accept on the basis of what you say, but the level of weight that the panel will give to that will also be less.
Also please do not take in a photo of children,just so the panel know who they are talking about. That just makes the panel immediately negative as they understand the importance of the job they are doing and do not need telling.

Thanks. These are very good things to know!

Also, would it matter if many of the current Y3s have moved out of the (tiny) catchment by now, so that we are in fact living closer than many of them despite not being quite close enough for DD to have gotten in in YR? Or is that irrelevant?

That is irrelevant. No mistake has been made so you are arguing that the prejudice to your daughter through not being admitted outweighs the prejudice to the school through having to cope with an additional pupil. Where other pupils are living does not affect the prejudice either to your daughter or to the school.

OK, thanks again - also good to know. At the policy level I think it is not great that LAs don't seem to bother with people who move out shortly after obtaining a place, only to commute in rather long distances to the school, but this doesn't make it a "mistake", just a poor policy in my opinion! And one which costs LAs with popular schools a lot of money, potentially, as they need to come up with enough places for local DC and those commuting in from farther afield.
In fact it seems that they only rarely bother with people whose address changes are more blatantly school-oriented, and then only when someone uncovers enough information to report. All of which I accept is irrelevant to this appeal and completely off the point of the thread, but I had wondered if appeals panels might consider closeness to the school compared to others.
I am gathering from this thread that we have at best a weak case, but that as admission said it might be worth proceeding anyway. I wish I had more of that 'what will happen if ... ' information. And I wish I had more faith in the current school to pick this up more. :(