Y2 maths

[NoParking]

I'm a wondering if anyone could tell me if this is anything to worry about?

My Y2 dd is doing well at school. But although she tells me she's in the maths group that gets the hardest work, and at parent consultations we're told she's doing well (last time she was at 2a) she really seems to struggle with what I think of as basic stuff.

For example, halving an odd three digit number (eg 764) caused complete panic, wriggling, hiding under the table etc yesterday. The maths homework ended up taking her double the allotted 20 minutes, though once she calmed down and I suggested how to approach it she could do it completely independently. She doesn't know her times tables, except by counting up / using songs and then only 2, 3, 5, 10 and 11. She seems to be ok on concepts but really weak on things like quick and accurate number bonds to 20 (she can work them out, but not fast).

Does this sound right for Y2, or should I be trying to get her to do some practice of number bonds and times tables? The background is that, if she carries on doing well academically, we would be looking at entrance exams for selective secondary schools, so by that point she would need to be very secure in the basics.

No I wouldn't be worried! Certainly no harm in pushing her to learn her times tables and number bonds, I'm sure by the of Y2 the expectation is knowing 2,5 and 10x then they move to 3, 4 and 8 in Y3 and all of them by Y4.
What is she like with basic addition and subtraction facts? E.g with numbers to 20 so 14+3, 19-7 (ones which aren't bonds to 10 or 20) I find that this is the big difference in Y3 between the good mathematicians and the weaker ones. The better ones can see and use patterns to do it quickly and the poorer ones need to use fingers or count on in their heads.

She needs to use fingers / count on for things like 14+3 and in particular seems to find subtraction hard, often worries about whether she should start with the number or the one below and gets herself in a muddle. Given time she can work it out, but for some reason she thinks she's no longer allowed to use number lines as she's in Y2 (I'm sure her teacher didn't really say this, but she's convinced!) and so she keeps trying to do it in her head.

Finding half of 764 is not level 3!

mrz Um, I don't think anyone mentioned level 3? I was told she was working at 2a last term, if that's relevant?

But I'd really value your suggestions on games (either real world or iPad, no pc here) that might help her to get quicker and more secure at things like subtracting / adding two digit numbers.

No you said she was 2a the next step is level 3 and this is way above level 3 expectations

Oh, thanks! I hadn't realised that. It's weird that she can do that, and still takes ages to work out 19-7.

If she still needs to use her fingers, number lines, 100 squares or counting on /back then there is no reason why she shouldn't in Y2.

Obviously in time being able to do simple addition quickly in her head is desirable as is realising that subtraction is the opposite of adding so she can use known addition facts to answer subtraction questions.

I would encourage her to add the units (ones) first then the tens so 3+4 =7+10=17

And 14-9 as 10-9=1+4=5

Hi NoParking:

Just a Mum but I think it may help you to see what the programme of study for the national curriculum outlines is covered for each school year - but especially year 2 - www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/335158/PRIMARY_national_curriculum_-_Mathematics_220714.pdf

IME at age 6/7 children are working with numbers to 100 and in terms of multiplication with multiples of 2/5/10 - often first taught by counting by twos/ fives/ tens and sometimes with songs.

The national curriculum does want Y2 pupils to handle multiplcation/ division by these numbers - but it quite clearly is intended for whole numbers and recall of facts already known - so knowing that 6 x 10 = 60 just as 10 x 6 = 60 and knowing that 60 divided by 10 = 6 as well as 60 divided by 6 = 10.

Both of my girls were working under the old national curriculum and to be honest in year 2 they kept it very simple - so didn't deal with x6/ divided by 6 - only x 10/ divided by 10 - as concept.

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Just as an aside - I think both of my DDs would have struggled with halving 764 in Year 2 - so I think your DD must be very secure mathematically to tackle such problems independently after a bit of explanation from you.

You mentioned your DD was struggling with subtraction - I agree with mrz's suggestion of breaking the problem down into workable chunks - but I also think it helps to ensure your DD understands place value at this stage - that the position a number appears in signifies the number of tens/ units/ etc... you have to work with.

really nice place value game through Woodland Junior Maths Zone (resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/index.html - great free website with lots of links to maths games). Bead Number game: www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resources_ftp/client_ftp/ks2/maths/bead/index.htm

I found that subtraction with food really worked out well.

So for example you could use grapes as tens and raisins as units. In your problem 19 - 7 - put one grape (for one ten) and nine raisisn (for nine units) on a plate. Now ask your daughter to take away 7 (7 units). This can be done by removing them or she can just eat them.

That will leave one grape and 2 raisins on the plate = 1 ten and 2 units = 12. And indeed 19 - 7 = 12.

This method comes in handy when suddenly you have to borrow units from the tens column - so for example if the problem was 17 - 9 you would have a plate of one grape and 7 raisins. You can't take away 9 raisins because you only have 7.

Two options. Start with one grape and 7 raisins on a plate.

Option 1. Two-step method.

Take away 7 raisins. Your left with one grape. Cash in the grape for 10 raisins and take away the other 2 raisins (7 + 2 = 9) - you're left with 8 raisins. And indeed 17 - 9 = 8.

Option 2 - Instant cash in/ go straight for borrowing.

So you have your one grape and seven raisins on a plate. you can't take away 9 raisins - don't have enough raisins - so cash in the grape for ten raisins. You then have 17 raisins on the plate. Remove or eat 9 raisins and you'll find (by counting up) you have 8 raisins left.

Subtraction is great with things like sweetcorn/ baked beans/ chips/ etc... Slip it in during mealtimes.

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A great way to really secure these number bonds is to play black jack or 21 - it really helps with working out those little jumps and undestanding what you need to make the target or 21 (or as close as possible) and how likely that is.

HTH

Year 2 pupils are still following the old National Curriculum

Our year 2 are def following the new curriculum. The teachers have said that they're doing work now that was previously done in year 3 and I can definitely see it, For example this year my dd2 is covering tons more than dd1 was when she was year 2. For example dd2s class was doing column addition, column subtraction by xmas of year 2, 3&4 times tables etc.

They will be tested on the old curriculum and the statutory requirement is to teach Y2 and 6 the old curriculum

This is my standard Numeracy advice:

?Practical things are best for grasping number concepts - bricks, Lego, beads, counters, money, shapes, weights, measuring, cooking.

Do adding, taking away, multiplication (repeated addition), division (sharing), using REAL OBJECTS as just 'numbers' can be too abstract for some children.

Number Bonds of Ten forms the basis of much maths, so try to learn them. Using Lego or something similar, use a LOT of bricks (of just TWO colours, if you have enough) lay them out so the pattern can be seen of one colour INCREASING while the other colour DECREASES. Lay them down, or build up like steps.

So:

ten of one colour none of other
nine of one colour one of other
eight of one colour two of other
seven of one colour three of other
etc,
then of course, the sides are equal at 5 and 5; after which the colours 'swap over' as to increasing/decreasing.

To learn TABLES, do them in groups that have a relationship, thus:

x2, x4, x8

x3, x6, x12

5 and 10 are easy

7 and 9 are rather harder.

Starting with TWO times TABLE, I always say: "Imagine the class is lining up in pairs; each child will have a partner, if there is an EVEN number in the class. If one child is left without a partner, then the number is ODD, because an odd one is left out."

Use Lego bricks again, lay them out in a column of 2 wide to learn 2x table. Go half way down the column, and move half the bricks up, so that now the column is 4 bricks wide. That gives the start of 4x table.

Then do similar things with 3x and 6x.

With 5x, try and count in 'fives', and notice the relationship with 'ten' - they will alternate, ending in 5 then 10.

It is important to try and UNDERSTAND the relationships between numbers, and not just learn them 'by rote'.

An inexpensive solar powered calculator (no battery to run out!) can help learn tables by 'repeated addition'. So: enter 2+2 and press = to give 4. KEEP PRESSING = and it should add on 2 each time, giving 2 times table.

There are good web sites, which can be fun to use :

www.ictgames.com/

www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/page/default.asp?title=Woodlands%20Junior%20School&pid=1

Thanks, all.

I will look up the rules for 21 - she loves card games.

Lots of the recommended games don't work on an ancient iPad unfortunately, and we don't have a pc, but I've found a couple of apps that look suitable.

The squeebles maths apps are pretty good; most work on the original iPad too

For number work you can't go wrong with good old fashioned board games snakes and ladders (2dice) ludo monopoly etc plus dominoes and card & target games like darts

squeebles is brilliant.

To learn a new table, I find if me and dd2 start with counting in 3s up to 12x3, then once she knows this, I do tables from 1x3- 6x3 and then when she's mastered it we do 7x3 upto 12x3. I find it works well and after 4-5 goes on squeebles she's pretty much mastered it.

I find covering a different tables every time they're off works well. Eg at feb half term we did 4x, easter 6x and at whit week I'll do7x. The good thing with squeebles is that they can whizz through quickly. Dd9 is in year 4 and practices hers on there every week - she does 3,4,6,7,8,9 and 12 in about 5 mins and knows them by instant recall out of sync.

There's also the division too so they understand inversion. They're about £1.50 each and worthy every penny.

764 isn't an odd number :)

PlasticinePam You're right. What threw her was halving 70 to get 35. Once she struggled through that she was fine with adding a zero to make 350, then adding on half of 60 and half of 4.