Had my son baptised twice

[Sadatschool]

I had my child baptised in a Church of England church when he was 6 months old as this was something that my husband wanted to do and as a lapsed Catholic I had no strong feelings on the matter. As our child begun to get nearer to school age we looked at the primary schools in the area, and secondary schools also and the ones they we preferred him to go to are Catholic. I also childmind from this school and have 5 children before and after school which go to thei school.
I decided to begin going back to Catholic Church and eventually after attending for around 6 months had my son baptised a Catholic.

We applied for a primary school place at the catholic school and yesterday found out he hasn't been offered a place, we live on the doorstep and as he is a baptised child I was confused as to why until I spoke to the school headmistress and was told they they have discounted his baptism certificate as they know he has already been baptised before and therefore you cannot be baptised twice so they have to discount the second, Catholic time.

Does anyone have any experience with anything like this as I am wondering if there is any point in my appealing this decision?

Baptised into another faith is usually quite a way down the admissions criteria.

I agree with you, there is no place in the state system for religious segregation but while the school-running religions are able to orchestrate things to admit only the children whose parents will be organised and value education enough to jump through hoops excluding those children with more chaotic backgrounds then maintaining the present system is in the interests of the religious groups and the sharp elbowed so it won't be changed.

So not only did you try and cheat the system but you effectively lied to a priest.

I didn't ask for judgement

No I imagine not, but you'll get it anyway. You tried to play the system and lost as others said. Tough.

What exactly do the entrance criteria say about baptism and/or attendance?

The second baptism isn't valid by church rules, so cannot be counted.

But your DC was baptised, and if your PP accepts that you have rekindled your faith and your DD has therefore converted, he should be able to attest that this baptised child is Catholic (that's why exact wording matters - your child wasn't baptised as a Catholic, but is a Catholic who has received baptism). You would also need vigorous backing from your PP (and probably higher up the RC hierarchy too) and good evidence of the strength of your DD's conversion.

But I would try to set that aside. You're in the same circumstances as the parents of a DD living next to an all boys school.

Though perhaps, when you have a few more years of regular attendance and your DD has made or is in preparation for FC, this could be an argument for a year 3 appeal (when class size regulations no longer apply).

In answer to your question - there is little point in an appeal as you have no grounds. Pop yourself on the wait list

To those asking how did school find out and priest didn't: priest never considered that op was being deceptive, school checked baptismal records.
Of course some one at the school may actually have known the child had already been baptised!

How did the school find out about the first baptism? What is your church attendance like?

I don't think it's that easy for a catholic school to check Church of England baptism records. How would they know which church a child had been baptised at? Even if the c of e cooperated it's a massive envasion of privacy.

It would possibly only be counted as being baptised into another faith if the child was baptised c of e and hod no other links with the catholic church.

But the OP's DS is a baptised Catholic child in the eyes of the Church. If the wording of the admission criteria is something on the lines of 'baptised catholic children' (and I don't know that it is) there's a tenuous argument that they either use the same criteria as the church or make it very clear they are using a different definition.

Our local school would have accepted her child under catholic criteria as a baptised catholic child.

But the OP's DS is a baptised Catholic child in the eyes of the Church.

No he's not, Rafa.

If he was baptised CofE first, and his parents lied to neglected to tell the Catholic priest, the Catholic baptism is invalid.

It's like getting married when you're already married. The second marriage doesn't 'count', and would be annulled.

I do feel terrible about being deceitful, if it wasn't so important to me then I wouldn't have done it.

The general consensus seems to be there's nothing I can do and tough, so thanks for the advice

Yes but the baptism is invalid because he's already baptised in the eyes of the church. The church recognises him as baptised because tritarian baptism is universal.

Baptised catholic child (at this age anyway) in the eyes of the church is a child who is being brought up catholic and has had a trinitarian baptism regardless of where that baptism took place of by whom. The only way he could not be catholic is if the first baptism isn't valid, in which case the second one wouldn't have been invalid.

Do try the waiting list option. The baptism 'mix up' won't necessarily rule you out if spaces become available. You have 'baptised in other faith' and your own Catholic background ('upholding the Catholic character and ethos of the school') in your favour criteria-wise.

The system as it stands does drive people to do things they shouldn't and I understand why you did it.

Rafals generally the more oversubscribed a school is, and the more likely deceptions like the OP's are, the tighter they make the criteria. Some schools have a separate category for catholic children whose catholic baptism was before the age of six months, which has priority over those who were baptised when their parents realised it would make a difference to their education later.

Sadatschool no you didn't ask for judgement but given that your question was "I lied in order to get a school place to which I wasn't entitled, is there any point appealing?" it was pretty naive to think you wouldn't get told that lying is generally considered inappropriate. I think the whole system is ridiculous and if I want my child to go to the school opposite my house (distance 0.02 from door to door) then I should be able to send him there regardless of religion! - so campaign to change the system, don't lie to pretend you qualify.

I'm not following you, Rafa.

The only way he could not be catholic is if the first baptism isn't valid

Is that 'not' supposed to be in there?

The first baptism was Church of England. What makes a child a baptised Catholic child in the eyes of the Catholic church is being baptised as a Catholic, surely!

OP's no different from many parents who play the system. Churches aren't packed to the rafters every Sunday apart from the 12 months or so before school application dates.

Wow, you lied to the church and to the school about one of their most important sacraments. That's a pretty big deal in this context and shows you in morally questionable light where the school governors and parish priest are concerned. Why did you not talk to your pp and ask for ds to be received into the church? You decided them intentionally and over a long period of time, you have clearly very little if any respect for their faith. It's all well and good for you to want your ds to go to this school but they have the right to choose their pupils and I very much doubt that they, knowing what they do about you, will want any further dealings after this. I am not overly religious but am at your deception.

OP that was a silly thing to do as l suspect you know.

DD was baptised Catholic but we applied for the local primary where she has attended the nursery.

Fwiw l do agree with faith schools, there should be more state schools and l very much disagree with sending your DC to a faith school, especially if you are an atheist.

This time of year though is stressful for lots of people. We are in SW London and cant believe we got our first choice school so l do understand how you felt leading up to it. However you've been caught lying and need to deal with the consequences.

As a cradle catholic, I'm sure that lying is a sin right?

I find this whole baptism thing silly. I also don't consider Roman Catholics a different faith to Anglicans (who are also catholic with small c) and neither can the church if they recognise an Anglican Baptism. To put so much store by baptism, particularly before six months, doesn't recognise how people journey in faith. It is a tick box thing that has very little to do with faith, at best it is a recognition of tradition.

The fact that the Roman Catholic church recognises Anglican baptism doesn't mean they don't consider it a 'different faith'. They obviously do, otherwise the criteria for admission would just be 'baptism into a faith'!

Agree that it's a tick-box thing, to an extent, but they have to use something as criteria...

And those criteria will get narrower and narrower the more oversubscribed a school is.

We have schools of Catholic and C of E denomination round here, primary and secondary. The admissions vary greatly according to how successful in terms of results they are and hence their popularity in the community. Massive variations of intake along faith grounds even in schools of the same variation of Christianity.

What makes a child a baptised Catholic child in the eyes of the Catholic church is being baptised as a Catholic, surely!

No. And this is the point. If the child were older and converted their baptism would be recognised and they would take first communion and be confirmed. The issue with a younger child is that all that is expected is they are baptised and are attending mass/being brought up in a catholic home. Because the church recognises one baptism as set out in the creed and canon law, it doesn't really matter where that baptism is carried out. Ideally it would be in a catholic church but if it happened in a c of e one then your family converted you are still recognised as catholic.

Fish I know some have very tight criteria, which is fine as long as they are clear. What matters here is whether the criteria at the op's school were clear. Admittedly she's badly hampered her chances by lying.

I think the point is that the child has neither converted nor is he waiting to convert when he's older. He's already been baptised Catholic, without his previous C of E baptism being disclosed, and then taken to church for all of six months just before school admissions time.

The school clearly doesn't believe the child is genuinely a Catholic by any definition, so they're not treating him as one for the purpose of admission. I see no inconsistency or unreasonableness on their part at all.