Should I get an external maths assessment?

[bigbutsrus1]

That's the question really. I have a very nearly 8 year old in year 3. She has struggled always with Maths. I have posted on here about it in the past. She came out average in her sats but I was very sceptical about this! Any way this year she has a teacher who has finally listened and not fobbed me off with 'she's fine". And has just finished doing the every child counts extra lessons (the initial assessment showed she is missing gaps in number). The trouble is the TA doing this was off sick and it has dragged on and she still hasn't had the end assessment yet.

This evening DD was doing a few sums from a work sheet and I am still really worried that nothing seems to stick! Shè will learn her number bonds to 10, 20 and 100, and some of the easier times tables but if put into a question or sum like how much heavier is 800g than 650g she completely freezes or just says random things! Then I asked how many 50's in 100 or how many 5's in 10 and she didn't have a clue until prompted.

I have taken all the advice like doing fun counting whilst cooking, counting sweets I have every bloody game and maths resource under the sun but still nothing seems to help. My DS is 6 and flys with numbers. I don't push her and spends plenty of time playing out in the garden and doing lovely things (I am not a scary pushy parent), but also know I really don't want her to fall so far behind like I did. I can see me in her and I am sure I was/am dyscalculia. Anyway, sorry for the long post.....I have heard of someone locally who was told to get their DD assessed outside of school (for literacy troubles), so then you can prove yo the school that they do need much more help. Do you think this is really worth it? Or any extra private tutoring.

Hoping for some words of wisdom or past experiences. I know we can't all be good at everything but worry when she goes up to middle school she may be 'streamed' in other classes according to her maths. In other areas and general knowledge, reading she is very bright. Thank you in advance for any help!

That is reassuring that her reading and other subjects are OK. Streaming, I would have thought, should be for specific subjects only, normally Literacy and Numeracy, so it SHOULDN'T affect other subjects. Except, I suppose, science or ICT could want an element of maths. However, I am only speculating on these possibilities, and don't have any evidence or experience to support them.

I always say it is important that children UNDERSTAND maths concepts, and don't just learn them off by heart without any understanding, which I guess does often happen. I will give you my standard Numeracy information, but it is quite possible you are doing most of it already:

Practical things are best for grasping number concepts - bricks, Lego, beads, counters, money, shapes, weights, measuring, cooking.

Do adding, taking away, multiplication (repeated addition), division (sharing), using REAL OBJECTS as just 'numbers' can be too abstract for some children.

Number Bonds of Ten forms the basis of much maths, so try to learn them. Using Lego or something similar, use a LOT of bricks (of just TWO colours, if you have enough) lay them out so the pattern can be seen of one colour INCREASING while the other colour DECREASES. Lay them down, or build up like steps.

So:

ten of one colour none of other
nine of one colour one of other
eight of one colour two of other
seven of one colour three of other
etc,
then of course, the sides are equal at 5 and 5; after which the colours 'swap over' as to increasing/decreasing.

To learn TABLES, do them in groups that have a relationship, thus:

x2, x4, x8

x3, x6, x12

5 and 10 are easy

7 and 9 are rather harder.

Starting with TWO times TABLE, I always say: "Imagine the class is lining up in pairs; each child will have a partner, if there is an EVEN number in the class. If one child is left without a partner, then the number is ODD, because an odd one is left out."

Use Lego bricks again, lay them out in a column of 2 wide to learn 2x table. Go half way down the column, and move half the bricks up, so that now the column is 4 bricks wide. That gives the start of 4x table.

Then do similar things with 3x and 6x.

With 5x, try and count in 'fives', and notice the relationship with 'ten' - they will alternate, ending in 5 then 10.

It is important to try and UNDERSTAND the relationships between numbers, and not just learn them 'by rote'.

An inexpensive solar powered calculator (no battery to run out!) can help learn tables by 'repeated addition'. So: enter 2+2 and press = to give 4. KEEP PRESSING = and it should add on 2 each time, giving 2 times table.

There are good web sites, which can be fun to use :

www.ictgames.com/

www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/page/default.asp?title=Woodlands%20Junior%20School&pid=1

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Is there any possibility DD might be prepared to work at home with DS, if he has a better grasp of numbers? Or is that just too much to expect from them?

I'll look back sometime, to see if there is any progress.

Thank you so much for posting. Like you said I have tried lots of the practical things. She does sort of remember her number bonds and can partition numbers and does grasp place value.... But putting these things together or using it to work out a sum is so difficult for her. She actually seemed to really grasp (very simple) fractions or things to do with shape seem ok , it's just the "pure" number part of maths she seems to hit a wall.

Oh and if you have any tips for subtracting that would be great! She has to do it on a number line or a very flustered counting on fingers and toes!! the school want them to be able to add and subtract quickly with two digit numbers (I still use my fingers)!

Your DD sounds like mine. She is about to turn 10. Her reading age is 15 and off the scales in her CATs, but she is just national average in maths, with an older brother who finds maths really easy. She really dislike maths, you can tell that her brain seems to freeze, and it really seems painful for her to work through seemingly easy sums. I had her assessed by an educational psychologist and there was no specific learning difficulties, just that her working memory was average, whereas all her other abilities were above average. She had 2 terms of extra maths tuition in a computer based class after school, and it did help actually, mainly for confidence and speed. I stopped it last term though and we now go through the no nonsense Bond maths together once a week. I have abandoned any selective 11+ plans for her, she is in a nice mixed ability school and will stay there for secondary.

OP - re subtraction; maybe go right back to the very easiest sums, 3 - 2 = , so that she should be able to do it in her head. Try to gradually build it up from there.

Or use blocks or counters as the numbers get larger. I think if she can get a bit more confidence, may help her to progress. Don't push her too hard, or she may get discouraged.

Fractions: again, start with basics. Draw a round 'cake' on thin card; two people want to eat it, so half each. Two visitors come and want some, so four people to share it.

Maybe that can also translate into percentages: so whole 'cake' is 100, half 'cake' is 50%.

She isn't learning any musical instrument, by any chance is she? Note lengths is all based on maths really.

I know a child that definitely has all the "symptoms" of discalculia and at the age of 9 is still struggling with anything more than 2 or 10 x tables. I have no magic answers. However this child is also an avid reader. What has amazed me is that if this was a reading problem, there would have been intervention. As it is, there has been nothing apart from being placed on the lowest table in the class. They are grouped by ability in maths. The school has continued to say their rote learning methods for X tables are to be followed and this child is not happy working on maths at home due to constant failure and preferring to do what she can do, read. Her parents now shrug their shoulders and have failed to get help from the school but not knowing the basics means their DD faces a pretty difficult future in this and other subjects. If she was my DD I would be constantly asking the school what they were doing for a child that clearly has SEND, but if you are not this type of person, your child does not get help for this problem it seems.

I'd say it would be a waste of money to get an assessment done.. Your dd's school won't appreciate you going in with "evidence" and will most likely dig their heels in and not agree with it anyway. Last thing you need is a strained relationship with school.

The best course of action I'd suggest is to continue a dialogue with the teacher and or headteacher and continue doing what you can at home.

As for streaming later on, most primary age children will only be streamed for specific subject which basically means sitting on a table with a group of children at the same level and doing the same work.

In high school things change slightly and streaming for English and Maths tends to dictate other subjects for instance the English stream would be used for humanities subjects too and Maths used for science and business studies ect.

newbieman1978

Your dd's school won't appreciate you going in with "evidence" and will most likely dig their heels in and not agree with it anyway.

I know what you mean. I have a daughter who is dyslexic but I felt stronger in Numeracy than the progress she was making at the bottom table. I thought it would be obnoxious to go in and just say that. So i took her to a tutor and after 6 months brought in some of the work and assessments. I thought the school would be pleased that I wasn't just saying and actually doing and showing evidence.

They dug their heels and shut down. I wasn't trying to be obnoxious but I was treated as if I was

• but it turns out I was right. We moved to a new catchment and the new school immediately assessed her at a higher level and believe she is stronger than average in numeracy. She is doing much better now and the school she is in - most of the kids end up in the highest sets when moving up regardless of learning issues.

When you have a kid who is dyslexic-or any kind of difficulty-, you have a heightened sense of trying to keep them out of the low streams for everything and 'not written off'. Unfortunately, you as a parent are powerless to change anything the school does academically with your child unless it is a mandated funding scenario.

Schools do not engage with parents in a way that leverages them effectively.

I disagree about an assessment being a waste of money. If an EP (even private) diagnose specific learning difficulties in maths, you certainly have a proof that there is something wrong, then the school will have to do something about it. Either they will want to reassess her themselves, or they will agree to implement the recommendations of your EP. If there is something that can be done to help her it would be a shame not to.

The school doesn't have to follow the EPs recommendations I'm afraid.

I think that the question here is to find out whether or not a child has a specific learning disability. And to take it from there.

I think that the question here is to find out whether or not a child has a specific learning disability. And to take it from there.

Of course the first step is to discover why the OPs child us having difficulties with maths but that doesn't require the expense of an EP.

OP can I ask why she is memorising number bonds to 20 and 100 if she us secure with number bonds to 10?

Thanks for all your messages. I do keep having quick chats with her teacher and she did mention she could have a look at the time table to see if she could squeeze in a bit of extra help but nothing set in stone as of yet. The trouble is I am conscious that the clock is ticking towards the end of this year. Next year the teacher is on long term sick and they are covering with job shares possibly but no idea of who etc etc
Mrs - with number bonds, I will for example say "let's do number bonds to 10, 8 and what make 10". She can do this easily (also up to 20 & 100) because she knows it number bonds. However if she saw it written as 30+70 she would panic unless I say oh look can you see a pattern or number bond. She also is completely confused at the thought of a 'near double', ie 5+6 , (double 5 and 1 more). The school expect her to be doing mental maths like 12+13 quickly in her head, and know all addition up to 20 and 100 really quickly. Subtraction seems to be the biggest fear though.
I hope if I stay focused on it and don't let things slip from the school she will be ok. It seems such a shame that other subjects later on are effected by streaming as she has a real flare for science/biology/plants. But I guess you're not going to get far with things such as physics if you can't cope with numbers

I've spent a lot of time with two of my DC pointing out patterns - it does eventually stick - I do mean a lot and for stuff I thought would be obvious.

Lots of 9 + 2 = ( same as ) 9 + 1+ 1= 10 +1 = 11 again and again.

I use mathsfactor to ensure that we do the maths practise - we do it daily. They watch worked example then have a lot of practise - then few days of that. Then it's next step along with same pattern.

It doesn't mean they don't freak out still - my youngest was fine with two column addition then next step so 20 + 32 + 31 in columns and sudden she couldn't add 2+1 in the units because she was convinced it was some how different. We do step back till their confidence is there.

Sometime she'll make 10 fine - like today she noticed 9 + 9 +1 = 10 + 9 = 19 - I noticed as she asked about next column and I checked via 9 x 2 +1 = 18 +1 and we noted we did it differently. Few questions later and instead of making 10 she was counting along the key board using it as a number line to add and making a mistake - I had to point out quicker way to her.

Subtraction - their school as good at pointing out number bonds work both way - so 7+3 =10 but 10 -7=3 and 10 -3 =7 - I think there were several sessions like that with maths factor to.

With times tables we did percy parker CD a lot plus all the maths factor sessions and explanation and games and school drills on timetables. My DC are way better than me at their tables now.

We were told one of our DC wasn't good at maths by one teacher , another got ok sats results but given a sum would visibly struggle - as maths is a strength in both mine and DH family we weren't prepared to accept that. It has taken way more effort for some of ours than for other peoples DC but they are all flying now.

There is a huge confidence thing though - if they think it hard and all mine have at some time picked that message up from their school that maths is hard and they have to get past that first.

Number bonds to 20 and 100 - never really got the point of learning. It a base ten system - you learn 1 +3 = 4 then whether that's in the 10 or 100 column its same pattern I find with mine it's getting them to recognise that that helps not treating 11-20 as somehow different to 21-30.

So I'd stick to lots and lots practise and pointing out pattern again and again.

Talking to other parents how much notice is taken of external assessments of issues varies wildly between schools, teachers within schools and is dependent on resources they have and level of need for other DC - I've had the old they aren't struggling enough yet line in different areas for my dc.

I don't push her and spends plenty of time playing out in the garden and doing lovely things (I am not a scary pushy parent), but also know I really don't want her to fall so far behind like I did

We watched our DC confidence crash - not just in maths - and we could watch them struggle and get upset and dispirited or we could step in and do a bit at home. During that time what we were asking them to do for 20-30 minutes might not be fun but was necessary.

We've watched and as their confidence and skill set increased they've actively choose to do things in areas they previously hated and avoided.

In fact with some of our they had real tantrums about spending 20 minutes doing maths factor - as they hated maths - same DC now beg to be allowed on - loves the lessons and wants to play the games and is ecstatic when they get the champ cup on them.

They still have time to play - out and indoors - as that's important too.

I'm not saying ignore possibility of dyscalculia - though here suggests weak mental arithmetic is a factor - I would point out that some people like me are very poor at mental arithmetic - I have dyslexia and poor working memory - but are very good at maths though need pen and paper.

I'm just saying daily structure practise - which you could do without mathsfactor - has had a massive impact and while two of mine had really struggled to pick up basic maths concepts once they have they're fine.

With number bonds if she knows the pairs of numbers that add up to ten then that knowledge translates to number bonds to twenty, thirty, forty etc

8+2= 10
18+2=20
38+2=40
98+2=100

So she doesn't need to learn every single fact
We use a programme called Big Maths which has "Leárn It's" instant recall of addition and multiplication facts
Doubles 1-9
2+1
2+3
2+4
2+5
2+6
2+7
2+8
2+9
3+4
3+5
3+6
3+7
3+8
3+9
4+5
4+6
4+7
4+8
4+9
5+6
5+7
5+8
5+9
6+7
6+8
6+9
7+8
7+9
8+9
2X - 10X
Applying known addition /multiplication facts allows child to work out the related subtraction/division facts.