11+ advice needed

[EvilTwins]

DTDs are yr 4. We had parents evening last week. Both working at 4b for reading/writing and 3a for maths. I am a secondary teacher so I know this is ahead of expectation for yr 4. We are in a grammar area (I don't teach in one) with one co-ed super selective and 4 single sex grammars. I am not sure that I want them to go to a single sex secondary school but they are keen to try the test. Anyone got any ideas about the likelihood of them getting a high enough score, based on current assessments, for the super selective? Or is it not as simple as that?

TIA

It's difficult to tell until Y5 IME, although it sounds like they are doing well.

There are 5 children in DSs year that have gained places in super selectives this year ( we are in a grammar area ).

The girls SS is easier to get into than the boys ones.

Of the 5 that have places, 4 have always been "top table" (since Y1) . The other one had a horrific amount of tutoring.

It's very difficult to say because it depends on so many things - what the test is - is it NC stuff, is it also reasoning, what are they like under pressure? And crucially, how accurate are they at speed? Speed was key in our test this year. How prepared will they be in Y5 to do some practice?

Thanks - this is helpful. I don't plan on tutoring them although if we decide to go ahead we'll try to do as much practice as we can without it getting intrusive.

Not sure exactly what the test involves - haven't started to look into it properly yet. I'm not keen to get the girls into it at all unless we think there is a chance they'll do well.

It's so difficult to know, tbh. We didn't even go to look at the SS until we knew DSs score, as we didn't want to put pressure on him and didn't want to be disappointed if he didn't get it.

He needed to prep for the test anyway, and wanted to do his best, so it worked without having the SS as the goal, IYKWIM.

Practice or prep is tutoring.Some people just choose to outsource.Either way I don't think it's fair to put any child in for any exam without some prep.

As I said on the other thread tables and levels mean very little.Top table in one school is very different to another or even from class to class.Re levels schools differ in how good they are at getting kids to higher levels.It may not mean a child is any less intelligent.One of my twins was top for everything from rec whilst the other quieter one was pretty much overlooked.The overlooked one often got higher than the top one in mocks and both are doing level 6 papers in Sats.I have friends with older kids top for everything pre 11+ whose kids didn't get in.

Year 4 is far to early to predict anything.I'd book a tutor for year 5 if you're going to outsource( prepping twins isn't easy,see how it goes and go from there.You only pay for tutors from term to term so you could easily stop if needs be.Speed,vocab,vocab,vocab,good maths and some General Knowledge seem to be key in the new exam.It seems to look for diff things than the NC levels do.

The eleven plus website has lots of useful information, particularly on the details of what school does what test. Be aware schools may be swapping to the CEM tests which are supposedly untutorable (Yeh, right). There is no certainty that any child will pass or fail, but the more they prepare for that specific test, the better chance they will stand.

Dd did 3 tests, so there is nothing to stop them doing more than one, then making your mind up on which school once you have the results. Look up alternate days for the tests if there are clashes.

Dd had good levels for maths, but we had a tutor for English for about 3 months, as I felt I was not capable of teaching her this. The NVR and VR we did at home, just doing a few tests here and there through year 4 then building up from about April of year 5. I thought, from reading the 11 plus forum, we had left it too late, but she was fine. Her speed really picked up over the last few weeks.

I came to the conclusion that the 11+ test is not a level playing field and the children who are prepared to put the work in over the summer holidays are the children who deserve to get in.

I would say over year 4 concentrate on maths because it is their lowest score and learning maths is never wasted. Do an NVR and VR test "Just for fun" and see how they go. (Pick easier levels to build up their confidence).

From what Ive read it doesn't seem to be totally predictable. If your DTDs want to go for it then its worth a go. My dd is also yr 4. Shes similar-4b on reading and writing and her strength is maths -5c. However, she often folds under pressure and can totally mess things up so I don't think good levels guarentee anything either. All I know is the thought of it makes me stressed. I dont think at this stage that I will put my second child in for it as his levels are more average (yr3) and I don't think he would cope very well if he did get in

Re the whole levels thing. It really isn't a reliable indicator. Two DC in DSs class - one always top table for everything, didn't pass. One not in top half of class, did pass. Quite a few "average" children did pass.

What's the point then? As a secondary teacher, there is definitely a correlation between KS2 levels and performance at GCSE. Is it just that NC levels aren't really measuring the same thing the 11+ measures? They ought to be a decent indication?

I don't think they measure the same.

At the grammar my dc have just got into the English exam is made up of a short essay and a comp.The comp is multi choice and completely different to Sats reading tests in text and structure,the essay has to be done in half an hour to include a plan,beginning,middle and end,imagery etc.Content seems to count.In state primary my dc didn't seem to do timed short essays but long pieces of supported extended writing.The privates seem to do it more. I had to teach my dc idioms,imagery etc and basic essay writing.They enjoyed the chance to be able to choose a subject of their choice and show their creativity as opposed to creating writing dictated to by the NC.The VR they simply don't do in school and in some it all rests on the VR and you only need a pass in the Eng/maths.If you read a lot,have a fab vocab and a good VR brain you could maybe have a weakness in either maths/Eng and still pass as long as you got a pass mark in both. Some the Eng/maths does count as they add them all up.

The new CEM is a killer,v fast.Loads of fast maths,masses of vocab they just won't pick up in school and VR/ non VR which again aren't covered in school.Non VR is a strange beast.

Obviously strong mathematicians,readers and writers will have an advantage but I don't think it's as clear cut as that.You may be bright but not had access to getting core skills up together.Maybe a weak primary,weak teacher,a bad year for personal reasons,SEN etc. a brushing up of skills would have a huge impact and many will do it.You may be average but had excellent primary teaching or teaching to Sats etc

I just don't think it's as predictable as looking at levels.It's one exam on one day,anything can happen.

+1 to the above.

The lack of correlation between levels and 11+ success is basically what was just said. Depending on area you need to have covered all the topics the primary school will cover by the end of year 6 but by the start of year 6. And you need different techniques for VR and NVR etc etc.

Ds missed a SS score by 1% ( we are hopeful of an appeal). At the end of year 4 he was 4b for maths,3a for English (though he was also 3a at the end of year 3!)

I live in the same area as you.

My dd1 was 4a in everything at the end of yr 4. She passed just outside the top 120 for the coed and got in.

Dd2 was 4c in writing and maths, 4b reading, and passed in top 120 for the coed.

We had a tutor who taught in small
groups and we also practised at home, 10 mins a day. The four weekends before the test we did a practice run of doing two tests back to back at home to get used to the timings.

On the day I think what made the difference was that the dd's kept their cool and kept up the speed, much helped by the fact that they had had lots of practice.

This was all before the CEM was introduced though - it sounds much harder, but if I was doing it now I'd do plenty of verbal and non-verbal and maths peactice as well as lots of reading for the vocab.

My DS passed for a super selective. At the end of year 3 his SATs results were 4c in English and 4a in maths. I don't know what his levels were in year 4.
Despite being bright enough to pass the exam he still needed some familiarisation with the papers, especially for reasoning which state schools don't teach. Familiarisation is key and a lack of familiarisation can be the reason why the seemingly average kids gain a place whilst the brightest kids don't.
How would you feel if one twin got into the SS but not the other twin?

Has the primary school
done Cat tests? Those are more helpful than levels. Both my dd's had cat scores that showed they stood a very good chance to get into the superselective.

Though levels can be a good indication, and your dds' levels are good, if they are prepared to learn the skills and work at the timings for the test they do stand a very good chance of gaining a grammar school place. The ability to work at something is precisely what they will need for grammar school. The good news is, the workload at grammar is a lot less than the workload for the 11+.

I would agree with that -the workload isn't that bad, and both my dds are getting on very well in spite of being tutored...

Re levels vs cat scores - it's interesting that dd2 had higher cat scores and passed "better" in the test in spite of having lower levels. It shows that different things are tested.

You need to know you grammars, the tests and how they allocate places before you can really tell much about your child's chances. SS round here take to 5-10% taking from the highest test result down, with now a lower access mark for pupil premium too.

Other places take 25% in grammars pretty much

CATS were the clincher for us (same area as you, I think, OP). I don't know what DD's NC levels were, but nearing the end of Yr 6 she is 'only' being entered for one L6 paper, and is middle set for maths, so she's not stand-out brilliant. However, she stormed her CATS, especially NVR, and sure enough did better at 11+ than children performing better in school. She passed for the girls' schools and came nowhere for the co-ed - they set the bar VERY high.

Did the school do cats with them? No idea whether ours will. I guess it'll be a case of giving it a go though. I am not keen on HSFG or RH though, mostly because I'm not sure a girls' school will suit them (and also because I've done some work with one of those schools this year and have not been impressed) but I will have to give the DTDs some say in the matter. Need to get to open evenings in the autumn and take it from there.

DD's school did CATS, but it's not universal.

It looks like open days are happening now/summer for 2016 entry, so you might be looking at this time next year for 2017 entry, rather than the autumn. They changed when the 11+ date came forward - we did open days in autumn 2013, supposed to be for 2014 entry but actually stuffed with Yr 5 rather than Yr 6 kids.

I'm a secondary teacher. Our open evening was full of yr 5s this year too. My girls are still yr 4 so no massive rush. I'll check school websites but I'd be surprised if many were doing their main open evenings this side of the summer holidays - it seems to be accepted that parents will come along with yr 5s these days rather than yr 6s.