Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Times tables Y4

18 replies

mjnh12 · 11/03/2015 13:12

Parents evening tonight so I'm asking - how solid should a year 4 child be in their time tables?

DD can work them out with fingers, doubling, counting up but she doesn't know them by heart (except 2, 5 and 10).

There is one term left before Y5 and I'm concerned even though she is in top maths group.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
AmazonGrace · 11/03/2015 13:28

Ds is in Y3 and they have regular games with regards to tables, which really have helped him no end, so much so that he's pretty spot on now with instant recall.

I'm not sure how solid a year 4 child should be at this stage, perhaps have a look at your schools website and their curriculum for Y4 to see what is expected and what is being taught at this stage.

Wizard19 · 11/03/2015 13:49

Hi,
They will not have a timed time table test, so how quickly they answer depends on the context.

Ideally - instantly

Working out the answers has a couple of problems, the first being in the mental part of the test, where they have questions at three levels of difficulty, and an allowance of
5 seconds for first 5, then 10 seconds for next 10, then 15 seconds for last 5.

Below is a sample from a past paper

13 What is left when you take sixty-two pounds fifty from one hundred pounds?
14 How many sevens are there in three thousand five hundred?
15 What is three-fifths of one hundred?

So knowing times tables, and being secure with everything covered, would give a child a big advantage. Having looked at a number of papers, you can expect at least half the questions to rely on times table knowledge.

Tables also play a part in many other parts of the math curriculum, including ratios, percentages, division, fractions etc.

So the better one's grasp of times tables - the faster a child is at recognising relationships with numbers, the more time they will have to complete the paper and even get a chance to go back and check their work.

So any time and effort spent on increasing speed of recall, will be of great benefit.

Working out the tables, as and when, steals time away, and generally means that those who are weaker at mental recall, struggle to complete the paper, not because they cannot work out the answers, but rather run out of time before attempting other questions.

You have enough time to help your DD. Good luck.

mjnh12 · 11/03/2015 13:52

Thanks. Sadly nothing on the school website. I helped her make up songs to memorize some of them and we do games too.

But shouldn't the school be making sure she can recall them instantly? Does anyone know how tables are taught in primary? We used to have to say them out loud etc but I'm guessing that doesn't happen anymore.

Because she is doing well in maths I think they teacher thinks she knows them! Really she is just working them out - this takes her too long of course. Feel that if she's not solid now she'll slip though the net and struggle when they move on in maths in Y5.

OP posts:
queensansastark · 11/03/2015 13:58

DD is in Year 5 top maths set. By Year 4 her instant recall was quite secure, which means she can move onto long multiplications and divisions in Year 5 on a solid basis. In year 5 she's also doing percentages, fractions, ratios which might be difficult or laborious without knowing times tables.

Year 4 at school, she used to bring home a 'target table' sheet as home work every week - 50 questions within 2 minutes. Now they do a timed times table grid in class regularly to keep it ticking over.

queensansastark · 11/03/2015 14:00

We also used an app called Squeebles at home which I highly recommend.

AmazonGrace · 11/03/2015 14:15

Yes, just remembered, ds had a times table test at school, 144 questions to be answered in 10 mins. He also had a homework sheet with similar.

mjnh12 · 11/03/2015 14:21

Wizard19 - great post, thanks.

I'm going to speak to the teacher tonight and find out what is happening.

I was slow to intervene when my DS (now Y7) was struggling with spelling. I presumed the school would deal with it but it was only addressed when I brought it up in Y5. Don't want to make the same mistake again.

I can see her struggling with fractions already because she is not secure in her tables.

OP posts:
Blazing88 · 11/03/2015 14:24

But shouldn't the school be making sure she can recall them instantly?

I liken learning times tables like potty training personally.

Yes, nursery could do potty training, but frankly, you should take the time and effort to sort it yourself.

Ditto times tables. Learning to ride a bike. Learning to swim. Learning to drive.

Times tables are at the heart of all maths. They need instant recall. The best way (only way) to do this is lots and lots and lots of practice. That is, totally hammer it for 2 weeks solid every night at home. Quick fire questions. What are 6 4's? What are 9 7's? 6 4s? Repeat ones until they go, Mummmmm you just asked me that! Great, then you should know it! Songs, singing, load of rubbish imo. The number of children who have to sing up to a certain line to get an answer - ridiculous!

No. Teachers don't have time to hammer these in school with all the other crap they're supposed to do now. They'd love to just focus on the basics of place value, times tables, calculations etc and just hammer them. But they can't.

But you can.

And before anyone says, it should be the teacher's responsibility, ask yourself this...

If you paid out for driving lessons for your 17 year old, and he had just 10 lessons and failed, would you blame the driving instructor? Or would you think, dammit, I should have taken him out myself for lots of extra practice in addition to the direct instruction he was receiving?

(But in answer to your specific question, I used to spend maybe 5 minutes most days asking times tables in order to let the children out of the classroom for break :) We would sometimes do 'speedy' times tables tests first thing in the morning. Weekly, I would do a test. I would expect children to practice at home with parents)

Realise I will probably have a lot of posters saying how out of order this is, and how teacher's should be held accountable...sigh.

noramum · 11/03/2015 14:46

We just had parent information evening yesterday about the new curriculum. They said by the end of Y4 they have to know all of them up to 12 and in Y5 they do instant recall.

We do nearly daily practice with squeebles on the ipad, DD did 2, 5 and 10 in Y2 and works now on 3, 4.6 and 8 in Y3. I would say 6 and 8 are wobbly but she is going there.

Our schools sees times table equal to reading practice, they expect the children to do it at home in addition to little tests and the general understanding in school. Chanting and just knowing the sequence like 2,4,6,8,10 etc doesn't help on the long run.

mjnh12 · 11/03/2015 15:56

Times tables are at the heart of all maths. Exactly. My daughter is lucky in that I will work with her to improve her instant recall.

What about those children whose parents don't work at home with them? Or can't work at home with them?
Should these children struggle/fail at maths because of a lack of parental involvement?
Is that fair?

OP posts:
AmazonGrace · 11/03/2015 16:02

There are quite a few good threads on here about times table help, games you can play at home etc

TeddTess · 11/03/2015 17:34

"Should these children struggle/fail at maths because of a lack of parental involvement?
Is that fair?"

you could say that about anything. reading, writing, spelling, swimming...

Ferguson · 11/03/2015 19:20

The following might help. Although a lot of it may have been covered already, this could fill-in gaps or clarify any misunderstandings:

Practical things are best for grasping number concepts - bricks, Lego, beads, counters, money, shapes, weights, measuring, cooking.

Do adding, taking away, multiplication (repeated addition), division (sharing), using REAL OBJECTS as just 'numbers' can be too abstract for some children.

Number Bonds of Ten forms the basis of much maths, so try to learn them. Using Lego or something similar, use a LOT of bricks (of just TWO colours, if you have enough) lay them out so the pattern can be seen of one colour INCREASING while the other colour DECREASES. Lay them down, or build up like steps.

So:

ten of one colour none of other
nine of one colour one of other
eight of one colour two of other
seven of one colour three of other

etc,

then of course, the sides are equal at 5 and 5; after which the colours 'swap over' as to increasing/decreasing.

To learn TABLES, do them in groups that have a relationship, thus:

x2, x4, x8

x3, x6, x12

5 and 10 are easy

7 and 9 are rather harder.

Starting with TWO times TABLE, I always say: "Imagine the class is lining up in pairs; each child will have a partner, if there is an EVEN number in the class. If one child is left without a partner, then the number is ODD, because an odd one is left out."

Use Lego bricks again, lay them out in a column of 2 wide to learn 2x table. Go half way down the column, and move half the bricks up, so that now the column is 4 bricks wide. That gives the start of 4x table.

Then do similar things with 3x and 6x.

With 5x, try and count in 'fives', and notice the relationship with 'ten' - they will alternate, ending in 5 then 10.

It is important to try and UNDERSTAND the relationships between numbers, and not just learn them 'by rote'.

An inexpensive solar powered calculator (no battery to run out!) can help learn tables by 'repeated addition'. So: enter 2+2 and press = to give 4. KEEP PRESSING = and it should add on 2 each time, giving 2 times table.

There are good web sites, which can be fun to use :

www.ictgames.com/

www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/page/default.asp?title=Woodlands%20Junior%20School&pid=1

mjnh12 · 11/03/2015 21:29

Thank you all.
As I said she is in the top maths group and is working towards key stage level 4.
Somehow she got to level 3 at the end of Y2 without knowing her times tables!!

OP posts:
queensansastark · 12/03/2015 03:46

I don't have an issue with helping DD with tables at home, especially as the school gives out times table worksheets for homework.

If I am the OP, what I DO have an issue with is that the teacher/school did not
a) clearly communicate that parents should be or are expected to teach times tables as home. IF that is the case, which is not actually that clear cut because 'rote learning' in any context seems to be a dirty word in some educational circles, so the thinking might be a bit blurred and might explain why the gap/need is not highlighted.
b) identify or highlight to the parent that this is an area which the child needs to work on (instead of the 'she's doing fine' line) in order to be able to build on it in year 5 etc.

I had similar things happen with maths in year 2 and 3, so I am quite paranoid and kept a close eye on her maths ever since. But if I am not the paranoid mum that I am, I could have easily assumed that everything was fine and I didn't need to intervene because the teachers always said she's doing great.

PastSellByDate · 12/03/2015 06:52

Hi mjnh12:

We went through something similar with DD1 especially - whereby the school notionally wanted her to learn times tables but their version of supporting this was a weekly test, laid out exactly the same way, given week after week - she memorized the correct answers, but in fact didn't know how to do them in new contexts.

First off - I strongly advise you as a parent to have a good read of the Year 4 section of the Programme for Maths for the new national curriculum: www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-in-england-mathematics-programmes-of-study/national-curriculum-in-england-mathematics-programmes-of-study - on page 25 under year 4 it explains that during year 4 pupils should master all 12 times tables (actually should be 13 because x0 should be included in there).

Second - there is a way of learning tables that is much less work.

Many schools gloss over x0 and x1 - so start off by ensuring that your child knows anything x0 = 0 and anything x 1 = 1

Schools also don't seem very good at explaining the commutative property of multiplication - so 2 x 3 is exactly the same thing/ answer as 3 x 2: e.g. www.coolmath.com/prealgebra/06-properties/02-properties-commutative-multiplication-01.

starting with x2/ x5/ x10 is classic and your child should also have prior to formally learning multplication tables been counting by 2s/ 5s/ 10s in KS1.

The next table to learn is x 3 - counting by 3s can work. If not turn your hands over and note that on fingers you have 3 lines. Thumbs don't work but I just tap the end of the thumb (so line/ line/ end of thumb). This way you have an automatic hand calculator to x10.

Using your hand calculator (palms up) 4 x 3 - is holding up 4 fingers and counting the lines (finger 1 - 1-2-3-)/ (finger 2 - 4-5-6)/ (finger 3 - 7-8-9/ finger 4 - 10-11-12. 4 x 3 = 12.

The other things schools tend to fail to explain is that multiplication is multiple additions. This is useful when your hand calculator doesn't make it to x11 or x12.

So working out 3 x 12 or 12 x 3 -

1 full hand calculator (all 10 fingers & thumbs used = 30) + 2 fingers on the hand calculator (2 x 3 = 6) = 30 +6 = 36.

------

Once you know times 3 I think the next thing is to explain doubling and tripling.

anything x 2 is doubled (adding a number + itself)
anythign x 3 is tripled (adding a number + itselt + itself again)

knowing this you can swiftly learn the rest of the times tables with doubling:

x4 - simple double x2 table facts (e.g. 4 x 4 is the same thing as 2 x 4 = 8 and double that = 16.)

x6 - simple - double x3 table facts (e.g. 6 x 4 is the same thing as 3 x 4 = 12 and double that = 24).

x8 (you can either double x4 table fact or triple x2 table fact - i.e. 8 x 3 can be thought of as the same thing as 4 x 3 = 12 and double again = 24 or 8 x 3 can be thought of as 2 x 3 = 6/ double that = 12/ double that again = 24).

x12 works the same as x8 - you can either double x6 table fact or triple x 3 table fact - so 12 x 3 is the same thing as 6 x 3 = 18 and double that = 36 or 12 x 3 is the same thing as 3 x 3 = 9/ double that = 18/ double again = 36).

so you should now know x0/ x1/ x2/ x3/ x4/ x6/ x8/ x10/ x12. That leaves x7/ x9/ x11. Let's skip x7 for the moment (as sadly there are no tricks) and swiftly move on to x9 and x11.

x9 has all sorts of tricks.

Hand calculator trick: - basically palms up numbering thumb at far left 1 to thumb at far right 10. Just fold down the finger that represents the multiple of 9. So say you want to calculate 4 x 9 - fold down your left ring finger - you'll have fingers (& thumbs) up to the left of the folded finger (these are your tens digit) and fingers (&thumbs up) to the right of the folded finger - which are your units. In this case there are 3 fingers up to the left = 30 and 6 fingers up to the right = 6 - so 4 x 9 = 36.

The other thing is to notice the pattern:

1 x 9 = 09
2 x 9 = 18
3 x 9 = 27
4 x 9 = 36
5 x 9 = 45
6 x 9 = 54
7 x 9 = 63
8 x 9 = 72
9 x 9 = 81
10 x 9 = 90

so the first digit between x 1 and x10 is always 1 less than the multiple of 9 you're calculating. and the second digit is whatever number you add to the first to make 9. So for example 8 x 9 - one less than 8 = 7 so you know the number starts with 7 and what + 7 = 9 - well 2 - so the unit digit is 2. So 8 x 9 = 72.

after that the pattern doesn't work. BUT - for all 9s times tables the digits add up (sometimes you have to reduce a bit) but the digits all add up to 9.

11 x 9 = 99 (9 + 9 = 18 and 1 + 8 = 9) 99 is divisible by 9.

12 x 9 = 108 (1 + 0 + 8 = 9 so 108 is divisible by 9).

by the way this add up digits trick also works for x 3 so 237 - 2 + 3 + 7 = 12 and 3 can go into 12 so 3 can go evenly into 237. Indeed 237 divided by 3 = 79.

----

11s table is easy up to x9 (just write whatever multiple down two times)

1 x 11 = 11
2 x 11 = 22
3 x 11 = 33
4 x 11 = 44
...
9 x 11 = 99

you should know 10 x 11 from tens table anyway or the trick of moving each digit to the left on place and placing a zero in the right most column.

so that leaves 11x 11 and 12 x 11

in fact like 9 there are tricks - once you have two digits you can do this little trick.

write the first and second digit a little apart and in the middle (in parenthesis) add the two digits together:

so 27 x 11 = 2 - (2+7) - 7 = 297

sometimes you have to carry

78 x 11 = 7 - (7+8) - 8 = 7 - (15) - 8 you'll need to carry the ten tens to the hundreds column - so 78 x 11 = (7 + 1) - 5 - 8 = 858.

=======================

so that leaves 7 - but thinking about it you know x7 for all tables already - 1 x 7 or 9 x 7 or 12 x 7 etc.... the only one you don't know is 7 x 7. I wish I could say there was a trick for x7 but in fact there isn't - so the way I remember 7 x 7 is to remember it is a bit of a swine which in fact rhymes with 49.

BINGO! you know all 12 times tables (well 13 if you count zero).

----------

Ways to practice:

Woodlands Junior Maths Zone: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/timestable/

multiplication dot com: www.multiplication.com/games/all-games

you can practice by playing snap - chose a table to practice say x4 - use ordinary deck of cards - Ace = 1/ 2 - 9 as marked/ Jack = 10/ Queen = 11/ King = 12. Shuffle cards and place them face down. I tend to write x4 (or whatever multiple on a post-it and place it by the deck). Flip card - say it's a jack - first to shout out 40 wins the card. The overall winner is the one with most cards at the end of the game.

You can also practice by playing snakes and ladders as multiples of the roll of one or two dice. So again - I'd write down the multiple on a post-it - let's say x4 and then I'd roll the dice. Say I get 8 - so what is 8 x 4 = 32 - I can move ahead 32 spaces. you'll have to play the board more than once - we tended to play forward and backwards until we lost interest or I gave up in despair!

Finally - if you son likes video games - try downloading timez attack. There is a free version (2 platforms) or you can pay for more snazzy version of the games with more worlds to explore. Basically you're cast as a young ogre who must go through a maze solving multiplication problems which are shown as both multiple additions and traditional vertical problems. Every now and then you're quizzed by an ogre and at the end of the level you're quizzed by a giant ogre. Doesn't feel like practice - is a bit tense (so you're doing this under pressure) - but is a lot of fun: www.bigbrainz.com/

HTH

mjnh12 · 12/03/2015 07:30

PastSellBtDate - Thank you so so much for your detailed post. Very much appreciated. Smile

OP posts:
PastSellByDate · 12/03/2015 12:43

Hi mjnh12

Just caught the howler

anything x1 shouldn't be = 1 - should have been

anything x 1 is ITSELF (e.g. 2,999,999 x 1 = 2,999,999)

sorry about that.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread