KS2 Mental Maths SAT - why no extra time for that section?

[smee]

DS is dyslexic and gets 25% extra time for the longer form maths papers, but they don't allow it for the mental maths paper. As I understand it this isn't the school's decision as it applies to all kids who take the tests. I don't get the logic, so thought someone on here might be able to explain it for me. It's not a big deal, I'm just curious.

Isn't it because the mental maths questions are read out to all the children?

HereIAm, yes they're on a audio tape, so they all hear it at the same time (I think!). The thing is my son's a terrific reader, so he could read it himself perfectly well. He gets extra time because he's got a poor working memory/ processing ability. Not all dyslexics have problems reading. He's one of them. Why I'm confused is they're convinced he needs extra time for the other two papers, but not for this. It seems illogical to me..!

Just as well it doesnt matter what she gets in her Y6 SATs.

And GCSE Maths doesn't have a mental maths element.

Yes I agree MsShell and I don't care what level he SAT he is I'm just curious as to why he can get extra time for one bit of the maths SAT and not the bit where he possibly needs it most. I'm curious as to whether anyone knows a logical reason why they decided that bit qualify.

Apologies, I missed a 'doesn't' before 'qualify'!

I think the mental maths paper is to see how well children do at manipulating numbers quickly in their heads. Extra time then defeats the purpose a bit.

Galena, yes I do know that. It's just the logic.. They've accepted his slow processing/ working memory/ dyslexia to the extent that they allow him 25% for the other two maths papers, then why not this too? Logically that doesn't make sense does it? His dyslexia's recognised by them, they've suggested that he should have extra time to level the playing field, so why not give it for the mental maths test too. It just seems odd to me!

In all seriousness it probably is because the SATs aren't important enough for the details to have been worked through.

For example it's ridiculously easy to get extra time in SATs - compared to GCSEs. It's all down to the schools judgement. And is given freely in some schools.

Whereas in GCSEs it's (now) far harder.

The SATs aren't important enough for parents to have made the kind of fuss necessary for the details to be looked at seriously.

And schools do t care enough to make that kind of a fuss either.

The rest of the paper is testing whether or not he can do the maths not how quickly he can do it. There is a time limit set, but it is one that you would expect most children to be able to achieve. Without the extra time those children with reading issues or processing issues might not be able to complete the paper so it would end up testing the speed they can complete the paper in, rather than whether they can do the maths.

The mental maths test is very specifically testing for accuracy at speed, not just whether children can do the calculations. Allowing extra time defeats the purpose of the test.

Whether that's actually fair or not is a different question.

I’m interested in this issue, but from a slightly different angle.

My DP and DS are both good at manipulating numbers in their heads – they have similar brains, I think. But DP used to do well at mental maths tests in school while DS is not doing so well.

The difference is that in DP’s school, the students used to read the calculations themselves. In DS’s school, the calculations are read out to the class. In both cases, the actual maths was/is performed in the head.

Both DP and DS were late talkers and have a relative weakness in the area of verbal memory – so dealing with information presented orally. In DS’s case, the design of his tests – with verbal input information - are masking his ability in mental maths while DP was able to shine in his mental maths tests because the input information was visual.

I am not sure that teachers are always aware of what exactly is being tested in a particular test situation.

Smee, do you think your DS would benefit from a test in which the information is provided visually rather verbally? (You mentioned he was a good reader.)

Outwits two if the three tests require the children to read the questions. The mental maths test is assessing a different skill.

mrz

The mental maths tests my DS is sitting - actually in secondary school - assesses two skills - ability to take in information presented orally and the ability to manipulate numbers in his head. He is quite weak in the former but very strong in the latter.

The only point I am trying to make is that his strong ability in manipulating numbers in his head is being masked by the design of the test. If he could read the question - and still perform the calculation in his head rather than on paper - he would do better.

Internal tests that individual schools may choose to use aren't the same as national statutory tests.

There used to be a way that children with extra time could get the mental maths section read to them separately, rather than listen to the recording. This would allow a slightly longer pause between the two repetitions of the questions, so that a child with slow verbal processing would have a bit more of a chance to process the question and work out what bits they needed to catch again on the second reading. However, that was quite a number of years ago, and I don't know if that possibility is still available.

The teacher can read the mental maths questions they don't have to use the CD

Imho Mental maths is not really maths, its a memory and language processing test. My son has language processing problems and was rubbish at mental maths at primary and was put in bottom set for maths until I asked for him to be moved up. Now at gcse hes predicted a* and teachers are keen for him to do further maths in the 6th form. I have no idea behind the logic of not giving him extra time but would not worry at all. Life is too short.

FastForward2, I agree with you that mental maths is not really maths. The calculational/oral aspects of maths recede in importance as you move up through secondary school and on to university. Many students with dyslexia are strong in seeing patterns and connections and in abstract reasoning - all of which are required for higher level maths.

Mental maths is the type of maths we use every day whether it's to calculate change in the shop or to decide whether that BOGOF deal at the supermarket is really a bargain.

mrz

I completely agree that being able to perform arithmetical calculations in your head is a useful life skill. But I was thinking more about maths as an academic discipline. Sometimes, people with dyslexia can find computation difficult yet be whizzes when it comes to mathematical thinking at a higher more abstract level.

The Oxford maths professor Marcus du Sautoy

www.theguardian.com/science/2008/nov/03/marcus-dusautoy

admits that he’s not very good at his times tables yet works at a level of complexity and abstraction in maths that most of us would find impossible. (I’m not saying that he’s dyslexic, just that mental arithmetic and advanced maths tap into different skill sets.)

Thanks all for replying. I still think it's odd. DS is in top group for maths and does well on the whole, but he really does need the extra time. The mental maths test is a real problem for him because of that. Every day in class they do a mental maths test against the clock and every day he comes last, yet give him the time to do the written papers and he does really well. They're recognising his dyslexia for 2 sections of the Maths SAT, but not for the mental maths section. Odd!

Which is why I said earlier that the mental maths test assesses different skills to the two written tests

I don't see any reason why there can't be an additional 25% allowed in the mental maths test simply by the questions being read out with a tiny bit longer of a pause than on the CD. I'm not sure if the guidance is that children can't now have additional time but it does seem daft considering it is a test of listening skills, verbal processing and then working memory rather than actually applying maths skills.

This is interesting OP. The general expectation for reasonable adjustments is that they are tailored to the needs of the individual and a blanket approach I.e everyone with x disability can have x amount of extra time or no one can have extra time or a different format on this test regardless of additional needs I think is difficult to justify in terms of the equalities act. If the equalities act applies in schools (I'm not sure if it does but they are public bodies so I suspect it does) I think you would have a very strong case to challenge the decision.

If the teacher reads the test rather than use the CD they are expected to use a stopwatch ... I don't know the reason why no allowance is made but the instructions are very clear

Princess, I think the Equalities Act does cover schools too. I think on balance I don't want to go there as in the end his SATs level is relatively irrelevant. His new secondary will re-assess and should (fingers crossed!) be able to see that he's relatively strong at maths but just not the quickest at getting the answer.

mrz, you're right of course as it's testing a different skill, but I think it's still inconsistent to allow time for the longer form papers and not for mental maths. Giving it for some bits and not for others seems bizarre to me.