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KS2 Targets in Year 5 - 4b

25 replies

proudmama2772 · 14/02/2015 17:48

My year 5 DS just brought home a school report stating his current level is 3b in maths, down from a 3a at the end of year 4.

His target is now a 4b for the end of KS2. He was 2b at the end of KS1.

I'll be really glad when they get rid of levels and give parents some better information. His current teacher assessment and formal assessment seem to match exactly what he made on some practice SATs.

It all seems so ridiculously predestined! He's 9 Hmm Much can change between now year and 1/2.

Anyone else find this frustrating?

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mrz · 14/02/2015 18:40

The good news is that 4b won't exists when he reaches the end of KS2

Thatssofunny · 14/02/2015 18:42

His target level doesn't mean that he'll only be allowed to reach that and nothing more. Hmm 2b at KS1 equates to an automatic 4b at KS2, in terms of targets, unless the teacher and SLT are happy to adjust them.
I have a child in my class, who attained at 1a in reading at KS1. I've moved his KS2 target up to a 5c when he finished Y5. He's just managed to attain a 5b in the practice SATs (on what I consider to be a rather nasty paper) and I've moved him into my booster 6 group to keep stretching him. I don't think he'll quite get the L6, but that doesn't really matter...
I've got another child, who got a 2c at writing in KS1, which would equate a 4c for KS2. He exceeded that already in Y5 and ended the year on a 4a, currently being on track for a 5b/a.

Targets are just that. You try to avoid having anyone below theirs, but there shouldn't really be a limit to go any further. It depends on the school's attitude, though. I once taught a child, who had been given a 2a for Maths at KS1, but entered my Y5 class on a 2b. His target for the end of KS2 was a 5c, so he was meant to be a 4b by the end of Y5. It was rather difficult to convince the head of Maths that this was a stupid target and needed adjusting. Said child missed out on the 4b,...by one sublevel. Angry He had worked his butt off that year and was still deemed to have failed. (I work at a different school now.)

ragged · 14/02/2015 18:52

The good news is that 4b won't exists when he reaches the end of KS2

I wonder if it will still exist, actually. Most schools don't have any other alternatives lined up, do they? Why wouldn't schools just continue with same grading system unless compelled to drop it.

proudmama2772 · 14/02/2015 19:03

thatsofunny

Thanks so much for the insight. Sounds like great results for your students. It's very frustrating as a parent who tries to do the right things and work with my kids a little to bump their progress to find out he's gone backwards! Levels be damned.

I think they are basing a lot on the mock sats - this is just a guess -and he made many silly mistakes and actually understands many of the concepts of the even level 5 questions. He did only just score a 3a - so the 4b may be close to what he actually gets next year.

I've got some practice papers I'm going through with him from CGP and they really are great exercises for stretching the brain and learning to apply concepts regardless of what he actually achieves.

OP posts:
mrz · 14/02/2015 19:08

No ragged it won't exist because the KS2 tests will be marked differently ... No levels!

ragged · 14/02/2015 19:18

So will all the tests change, they won't use any of the current tests with the current scoring system, new marking schemes & exams for every yr group? So what is the new marking scheme that everyone will use?

mrz · 14/02/2015 19:21

Yes there are new national tests for both KS1 & 2 in 2016.

mrz · 14/02/2015 19:33

How will Key Stage 2 SATs be marked?

The existing national curriculum levels are being scrapped, and instead children will be given standardised scores. You will be given your child’s score, alongside the average for their school, the local area and nationally. There will also be a ‘performance descriptor’ of the expected standard for Key Stage 2 pupils. The Department for Education is aiming for 85 per cent of children to reach or exceed that standard.

mrz · 15/02/2015 07:21

The DfE guidance says :-
During the 2015 summer term we will publish:

a full set of sample tests and mark schemes for each of the national curriculum tests at key stages 1 and 2
guidance on how the results of national curriculum tests will be reported, including an explanation of scaled scores
final test frameworks
We will also include details in our assessment update emails to headteachers.

PastSellByDate · 15/02/2015 08:15

Hi proudmama272

I get that you find what is happening with your son confusing - last year he was working at level X and now suddenly the teacher is said he's not quite level X, he's working slightly below that at Level Y.

First off - you aren't alone - this happened throughout KS2 for both DDs whilst at dear St. Mediocre. It was in fact teachers gaming the system for their metrics. At St. Mediocre teachers were expected to raise achievement of each child by two sub-levels over a given school year. At the start of the year there would be a lot of testing, one to one work, etc... and at some point at our first parent/ teacher meeting we'd be told that 'due to loss of learning over summer'/ 'child is showing they're not totally secure at that level'/ 'child didn't quite fully achieve all targets in that level' - that they were going to roll the level back - I've had both starting a NC Level & sub-level over again from scratch with the teacher observing targets achieved by my child 3 times all over again to teachers rolling them back to the previous sub-level and starting that all over again.

So if that's what is going on (and I don't know) - that isn't the levels fault - that's 'target culture' - welcome to Britain. (Imagine if the energy expended by individuals doing things like that was actually focused on doing the job at hand - in this case educating children?).

Second - mrz is correct the levels are changing - for a number of reasons - see this recent press release from Nick Clegg (Liberal Democrats) for more info: www.gov.uk/government/news/raising-ambitions-and-standards-for-primary-schools - but this is very much the current coalition governments plan and will roll out regardless of election outcome.

The key thing to pick up is that the government have realised that NC L4c is not a sufficiently high enough standard of core skill mastery to go on to do well in senior school.

The most damning statistic from that document is this:

The new “secondary ready” bar will ensure all primary schools have high aspirations. Statistics show that currently many pupils achieve
a level 4 – but only at the lower end (level 4c). But the difference between academic achievement at secondary school between these pupils and those who manage a “good” level 4 (level 4a or 4b) is significant:

<strong>81% of pupils who had scored in the top third of the level 4 mark</strong> <strong>range in both English and maths went on to achieve at least 5 Astar</strong>

-C GCSE grades including English and maths last year*

 <strong>72% of pupils who had scored in the top or middle third of the level</strong> <strong>4 mark range in both English and maths went on to achieve at least</strong> <strong>five A</strong>-C GCSE grades including English and maths last year but*

  <strong>47% of pupils who did not score in the top or middle third of the</strong> <strong>level 4 mark range in both English and maths went on to achieve</strong> 

at least five A-C GCSE grades including English and maths last year*

You may not like NC Levels proudmama272 - but you do need to absorb that it is very much in your child's interest to achieve NC L4b or better on Key Stage 2 SATs so that he can go on to thrive in secondary school. I get that some parents see this as some form of 'academic' threshold - my child isn't going to be a rocket scientist he doesn't need to achieve this - but the world is becoming a place of many forms, on-line information and frequently people having to work out what to do because getting ahold of a human being for help with a form isn't going to happen particularly quickly (and will be expensive as most help lines charge you). Achieving Nc L4b is about ensuring that your child can go on to easily handle life's administration as a citizen, a businessman or an employee.

HTH

mrz · 15/02/2015 08:22

PSBD the levels aren't changing they've been scrapped! They will be used to assess Y2 & Y6 this year as they match the curriculum those children have followed (so it would be unfair to assess them against a different set of criteria).
Some people seem to be in denial and others are living on the hope that someone (the DfE) will provide further resources ... they gave clearly stated they don't intend to do so!
Now we could have a new government and they could change things but in the meantime surely we should be assessing children accurately?

ragged · 15/02/2015 09:35

You say "have been scrapped' but DD's secondary school still firmly uses NC levels. Not past tense, maybe in future. DD hasn't heard anything yet about a new assessment scale.

PastSellByDate · 15/02/2015 10:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mrz · 15/02/2015 10:58

PSBD I wasn't aware that you are a head teacher? Confused

mrz · 15/02/2015 10:59

Then I would be concerned ragged.

Feenie · 15/02/2015 11:16

I had thought your recent posts were much more sensible, PSBD. How depressing to open a thread and see you've reverted to sniping.

Such low level bad tempered posts are indeed past their sell by date.

mrz · 15/02/2015 11:36

I didn't feel it was worth commenting on but the truth is I'm not unusual and my school isn't unusual ... It's sad that PSBD feels that doing your job well requires additional rewards.

Feenie · 15/02/2015 11:41

I agree, it is sad, mrz.

Clearly someone got out of bed the wrong side this morning.

ragged · 15/02/2015 12:04

Concerned about what mrz?
It's considered one of the best schools in the LEA, btw.
DD has heard of numbers for future GCSEs, but she's still in KS3.

mrz · 15/02/2015 12:10

Concerned that a school isn't prepared for the changes when they have been given two years notice.

proudmama2772 · 15/02/2015 18:38

PSBD - great post as always. Many thanks.

"Imagine if the energy expended by individuals doing things like that was actually focused on doing the job at hand - in this case educating children?"

I couldn't agree with you more. The numbers 'gaming' definitely does go on and undermines the integrity of the whole assessment process. I can't argue with a SATS test score and I would rather see DS's test, and some of DS's work, than the whole termly report. The comments they write up are very nice to have but I wish teachers didn't have to spend so much time doing it.

I also love it when the school uses websites like SUMDOG - you get a clear picture of where the strengths and weaknesses lie within the learning objectives.

OP posts:
mrz · 15/02/2015 19:13

"I can't argue with a SATs test score" interesting when many secondary schools do just that ...

Unfortunately a test only provides a snapshot of what a child can do on one day and there can be many reasons why a child under performs or indeed makes some lucky guesses ...

Feenie · 15/02/2015 20:09

As always? Not the weird ranting deleted PAs, surely.

proudmama2772 · 15/02/2015 20:09

mrz - I agree its just a snapshot in one day.

It's the trend shown with 3 mocks each year that really justifies his level. To get a 5 they not only have to be solid within the breadth of the curriculum but they also need to be 'savvy' enough to apply it. I'd really like DS to be at a 5 by the end of next year, but it's looking like he's not going to make it. DS1got a 4b on the SAT and overall assessment in YR 6, but took some mocks 1st term year 7 and got a 5. DS1 just came 4 marks from a B in Maths mock GCSE mid YR 9.

So I don't try to give up hope based on a Yr 6 result.

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mrz · 16/02/2015 06:24

It's a snapshot restricted by time to only test a small part of the curriculum content. ..more than possible to pick up enough marks by answering lower level questions to only answer a few that are actually level 5 I'm afraid it's a flaw in the system.

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