Kumon - does it just not suit some children?

[Notcontent]

Dd is eight and doing well at school but I think she lacks a bit of confidence in maths. I signed her up for Kumon (yes, I know it's expensive for what it is...). She has been doing it for two months and I can't say she is really enjoying it, to put it mildly!

She started off with some very easy addition and subtraction, which she didn't mind too much as it was so easy. She is now doing a subtraction of larger numbers using the column method. She has no problem doing it, but hates the repetition of it. I can't say I blame her - doing 80 of those in one go isn't that much fun.

Should I persevere? I do think she is getting something out of it, but hate having to nag her to do it.

Oh my gosh, sorry, I meant to post this in primary education!

Personally, I think it's a total waste of money and more likely to turn the child of maths forever!

You'd be far better of -

Doing times tables in the car. There are all kinds of ways to make it fun. 5 minutes a day makes all the difference.

Buying some of those cheap workbooks to do together.

Lots of games are maths based.

Every day stuff weighing, measuring, sharing out equally, costing stuff, price comparisons in shops, value for money etc

Asking her 'sentence' questions such as 'If I go into a shop with £10 and need to buy eggs for £2, bread for £1, cheese for £3 and some flour for £2, how much change would I have? Then ask her what she would buy if you gave her the change. Magazine costs £1, chocolate bar 50p etc

Also ask her teacher if there's anything specific you should work on.

Kumon works for a very small number of children who learn through repetition, for the vast majority it's more harm than good.

Hmm, I think you're right. That's what I started off doing - workbooks and free worksheets off the internet - mixing it up so it wasn't too borning.

Never tried it but would try to make it fun - playing cards for example or some of the online games. My DC always took an interest by counting their pocket money etc.

Mine didn't like it much but it did her some good. We lasted about 4 months before she absolutely refused to do the worksheets ever again. Her maths did improve in that time however. She now quite likes maths.

What she does now is has a little exercise book by her bed and when we do her story at night dh and her give each other a few sums to do then check the answers on the calculator.

I think it suits some dc but not others. If she's not finding it fun there are lots of other ways to improve her maths. Mathletics seems good - we've only had a log on for a couple of months so I've not seen a lot of it. But it's just more fun doing it on the computer and there isn't that pressure of having to do it every day.

Our primary school has membership of a website called Espresso which is great for supplementing learning at school. We have been doing some multiplication exercises on there which are simple but enjoyable for DS.

We'll move this for you OP.

If you just want lots of repetition of straight sums (which seems to be what Kumon is to me), probably cheaper to print worksheets off the internet and do them in your own time. Or we like a free app called MathZombies.

Otherwise there are lots of online maths schemes (Maths Factor, Mathletics, MyMaths, Education City etc. etc.) which are probably more engaging and cheaper than Kumon. If you ask at school, you may find they already subscribe to one of these and will let you use the login in code at home for extra practise.

I'm convinced that getting confident in maths needs a certain amount of drilling in the basics. I'm not convinced it needs nearly the amount of drilling Kumon appears to do though.

That said my friend's kids do it and seem to enjoy it and maths generally. We're just making up our own, themed around whatever DS's latest craze is. He loves maths, I don't want him to lose out on the drilling bit while he's young enough to not mind it. But broken up by other stuff and only as much as he wants to do.

Do think computer games are a good solution for getting kids to do some drilling without quite realising they are doing it.

Whyndo you think she needs extra maths?

I had a dd very similar and used Kumon for exactly the same reason - maths confidence however I don't feel it helped at all.

Later on I got her a maths tutor and that was the turning point - 1 to 1 coaching which enabled her to build confidence. The tutor was amazing though and worked wonders. I feel Kumon was not right for her as there isn't enough support. I have a very able son and he loves to do repetition questions so would be really good for him.

This may help a bit, and the most important thing about Maths is UNDERSTANDING what you are doing, not just performing a memorised set of instructions, without any understanding:

?
Practical things are best for grasping number concepts - bricks, Lego, beads, counters, money, shapes, weights, measuring, cooking.

Do adding, taking away, multiplication (repeated addition), division (sharing), using REAL OBJECTS as just 'numbers' can be too abstract for some children.

Number Bonds of Ten forms the basis of much maths, so try to learn them. Using Lego or something similar, use a LOT of bricks (of just TWO colours, if you have enough) lay them out so the pattern can be seen of one colour INCREASING while the other colour DECREASES. Lay them down, or build up like steps.

So:

ten of one colour none of other
nine of one colour one of other
eight of one colour two of other
seven of one colour three of other

etc,

then of course, the sides are equal at 5 and 5; after which the colours 'swap over' as to increasing/decreasing.

To learn TABLES, do them in groups that have a relationship, thus:

x2, x4, x8

x3, x6, x12

5 and 10 are easy

7 and 9 are rather harder.

Starting with TWO times TABLE, I always say: "Imagine the class is lining up in pairs; each child will have a partner, if there is an EVEN number in the class. If one child is left without a partner, then the number is ODD, because an odd one is left out."

Use Lego bricks again, lay them out in a column of 2 wide to learn 2x table. Go half way down the column, and move half the bricks up, so that now the column is 4 bricks wide. That gives the start of 4x table.

Then do similar things with 3x and 6x.

With 5x, try and count in 'fives', and notice the relationship with 'ten' - they will alternate, ending in 5 then 10.

It is important to try and UNDERSTAND the relationships between numbers, and not just learn them 'by rote'.

An inexpensive solar powered calculator (no battery to run out!) can help learn tables by 'repeated addition'. So: enter 2+2 and press = to give 4. KEEP PRESSING = and it should add on 2 each time, giving 2 times table.

There are good web sites, which can be fun to use :

www.ictgames.com/

www.resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/index.html

Oh, lord not Kumon - waste of time and money. An absolute case of Emperor's New Clothes.
These workbooks are fun
Mythical Maths

Thanks everyone!
Funny some of you mention Mathletics - they actually use that at dd's school - that's the only maths homework she gets actually. But I am not a huge fan of it. I am probably a bit of a tiger mum and trying to get dd to do too much.

Should I persevere? I do think she is getting something out of it, but hate having to nag her to do it.

Well putting aside the costs, which are excessive, I would ask "Does your DD feel she's getting something out of it?"

I signed up DD for Kumon for a specific reason, learning her number bonds to 20 instantly. Nothing but the massive repitition that Kumon provided worked, it was like a mental block which definitely impacted on her confidence (now much improved).

I then cancelled, but not before paying enough to have all of the column addition & subtraction worksheets. DD's just started doing the sheets I've already paid for again, after a break of a few months, but without being timed. To be honest I'm tempted to start the subscription again for the multiplication/division because for my DD this level of repetition works. She knows nearly all of her times tables (not the same odd mental block) but still lacks fluency. It is dull, but then so is swimming up and down a pool improving technique or initially learning to play the piano and that can take a few years too until it really becomes fun. Just like learning to read really - it's great for those that learn quickly but what if you don't - no one suggests that if you're struggling to learn to read that less practice will improve your ability.

The difference in DDs confidence when she developed mathematical automacy for number bonds was quite pronounced. And she doesn't just need understanding she also needs fluency.

You wouldn't leave a child's reading at the level where they have to sound out each word and put them onto chapter books because they understand how to sound out and blend any word. You want them, through sounding out, to develop sight recognition (or super fast subconscious sounding out).

Surely it's the same with maths - DD could partition to work out 7+8 but that's so much slower than just knowing 7+8 = 15. Yet at school even if you don't have that fluency you still have to move onto more & more complex maths. Like being given a chapter book whilst still needing to sound out.

So I think the question you need to ask is simply "is it helping your DD and if you think it is can she see it too?" If the answer is yes, then it's just a matter of do you (both) have the discipline and the money.

If children need help with maths and you want to pay for It, they are far better off with a tutor or at a tuition centre where a qualified teacher can teach them. Kumon is just death by worksheet and doesn't help understanding, and very rarely are the tutors actually teachers. Same goes for Explore Learning centres!

What about games such as poker and pontoon (21)? And I agree with Ferguson - practical objects they can manipulate make much more sense as they can see the maths.

My maths tutor friend description of Kumon was : "You can tell the children that do Kumon as they are fast at mental maths but have no idea how to work things out"

And if a child has no other issues than mental maths (like my own DD) - is it ok then?