State -v- Private

[aim1ee]

Having experienced both I feel in a position to comment. Our views - the assumption that because you are paying independent school fees that the education and care must be better, is an absolute myth. State education is excellent; provided by qualified teachers often with teaching assistants/trainee teachers in the class together, after school clubs and sport, breakfast clubs, regular sight of books, pastoral care and parental involvement. Especially good advice on internet safety and how numeracy and literacy are taught - even parents' lessons! Most special needs and disabled children are integrated into a happy community. On the other hand we found private schools are elitest, one or two really rude and nasty parents, inadequate leadership by Heads, only one class teacher (sometimes unqualified), short staffed, absent pastoral support, inadequate school reports downloaded from the internet with a few chosen phrases slotted in, school's own policies not adhered to, expensive uniform some of which went missing, overlong holidays. Without doubt State is best.

The point is that people on here seem to think that if their child comes into contact with "non naice" children, they will instantly adopt the mores and culture of "the great unwashed".....................

Hak I have seen you say as much over and over and over again. One poster you say admitted this?

Maybe that's because she is the only one who felt this way?

You seem determined this is how most of MN feel. Its really odd. We will all feel different thing because we are all different.

The poster I suspect your referring too, was I believe some sort of TA in her local schools and had a catalggue of incidents and reasons why she didn't want her DD's attending, she saw first hand, including Having chair swung at her head.

I almost feel your telling yourself that it will be OK your son is not at the Grammar school you entered him for and he won't catch this great un washed? Your trying to convince yourself every time your telling us this is how we feel?

Word was one of your great un washed....I was also one of your great un washed! I have spent much time with the great un washed and word is absolutely right, you don't catch Middle class aspirations from them. Just as much as you don't catch the great un washed.

I've been the kid without money. I've been the kid doing a moonlight flit from the bailifs. I didn't have holidays and books and what have you. The presence of naice children in my life did not help one shiney shit!!!!

You too Word, "Bailiff training" ( as my Father puts it) can come in handy in life. Its good for parents to be all rounders and pass down a balanced view of the world.

You think it's dreadful that middle class people avoid sending their DC to school with working class people

No. A small percent will send dc private for this reason.

Most MC people will send their dc to school with everyone else. Because thats what the majority of the people in this country do.

People who can afford and send dc private will do so for many reasons but I suspect a main one is simply a better education, extra activities.

The single biggest contributor to how "good" a school is is the number of committed, engaged parents.

Totally disagree and would say its the "head"
This is why, brilliant heads have turned around failing schools with mass FSM children.

It's not just the head, it's the whole culture of each school.

Good school = Head + Teachers + Environment + parents + Children

I'm with KnittedJimmyChoos...

With DD's school, I can 100% say that the current and last HTs are the single most important factor in that school's turnaround.

The governing body is also very committed and the HT's have deliberately taken on lots of young newly qualified teachers and many through Teach First, they're also a training school. Most staff are in their 20's and the senior team in their mid-30's to early 40's.

Despite it having been an Outstanding school for over 6 years now, the number of MC parents is still very low - you can't buy your way into the catchment and there is very little non-social housing in the area.

It's an old Victorian building with very little outdoor space and has recently had to expand to 2 form due to pressure in school places in the Borough so it's cramped. It's surrounded by a 15ft fence topped with barbed wire and you have to get through 2 security doors to get into the play-ground.

Given only 1/4 of the children aren't on FSM, the shiny MC improvement factor isn't really there. I would guess that most of the non-FSM and MC families have 2 working parents, the children are in BC and ASC and the parents are not sitting on the PTA (all meetings at 3.30pm), governing body or volunteering on school trips etc

Surely it's all about choice? if you can afford school fees then you have a wider choice. It goes without saying that the effectiveness of a school isn't bound to it's status as state school or otherwise.

LO goes to a local independent, it's not the best academically but it matches his personality in ways the other local state and independent schools don't. It's a small school with a big emphasis on sport and autonomy, this we felt was important for him to have a happy school life. We have a very good local state school, it's actually our nearest school but it's too big and too academic for LO who would feel lost.

The inverse snobbery is ridiculous, I know plenty of parents who are struggling with astronomical mortgages to get their children into a top state school so that they can feel morally superior for going to state. This completely ignores the question, how many can afford to live by the best schools? How many parents find god when a school is up for grabs? how many move home? Parents all want to do what is best for their children but it's just so much easier to make lazy judgments.

I believe that the most important thing for the individual child is the quality of their class teacher.
At my DCs' last primary school, I really couldn't stand the head, who was really aggressive and horrible to parents and had a very open "If you don't like something find another school" attitude. However, most of the teachers were excellent (so I guess the head was good at recruitment), and that is absolutely what matters. I think that there's research to show that the class teacher is what makes most difference to the child's progress (other than their parents).
At the previous primary school, it was rated outstanding across the board. But they had just recruited a brand new newly qualified teacher for Reception, and my DC had a miserable year with her and learned almost nothing and really lost confidence in her ability to learn to read (I had to teach her myself over the summer hols before Yr 1).

Wherehestands - the HT doesn't need to be nice (although it helps), they do need to be extremely good at getting the best of everything they can, whether that is the right teachers, resources, or whatever and then getting the best out of them. A nice HT who can't do that is never going to run a really successful school.

I totally disagree that it is the quality of the teacher that defines a child's experience of school
We used to attend a lovely primary in a village. Brilliant teachers, confined by impossible system in which MY child was failing.
Teacher had 3 un-statemented children with extra needs, a year 4 class of 32 children. Teacher is spending time with child A who uses very adult language, teaching assistant is taking care of child who throws chairs if he isn't given attention exactly when he demands it. Average child sat in middle of class needing support gets lost.
Head teacher very much feels his job is to get ALL his children to level 4 in their year 6 stats tests. Which isn't a bad state of affairs but it does leave the children who are already at level 4 hanging for 2 years.
Unfortunately the system that the school had to stick to meant that there were no solutions.
We moved schools, smaller class sizes, extra support systems for academic progress as standard. There have been pastoral issues (with other children not ours) and the way they have been handled holds the vital thing of being able to exclude if behaviour doesn't change.

Yes I have picked my children up and put them into a bubble, removing them from some aspects of the variety of life. I have no remorse. they will encounter enough of it as they grow.

This HT was a good organizer, which helped. But she was so awful to parents that quite a few withdrew their children for that reason alone. I knew several who did that, and they were the middle class highly educated parents with well behaved children type. The Head had the ability to send the most mild-mannered parent into a complete rage. Losing those children didn't benefit the school. Also, 3 lovely Muslim children were expelled solely because their parents felt that their religion precluded them from wearing the school logo, and they weren't allowed to wear an identical but logo-less top. It was such a shame (and probably also a breach of equality law).
However, my DC enjoyed the school, largely because the class teachers were so great and kept all abilities challenged and having fun.

Strumpers

That post could have been written by me

Moved DS year 3 (36 in his class!!)

I'm glad you could do it strumpers. I'd make the same decision in your shoes.

"expelled solely because their parents felt that their religion precluded them from wearing the school logo"

Was that a private school?

The school logo jumper from our daughter's old GDST private school (must be bought from the school shop at high cost) was polyester and there's no cotton alternative. Polyester is very bad for eczema sufferers, as it tickles their skin and make them scratch even more. When our daughter's eczema got inflamed after 2 terms at that awful school, we quietly changed it to a cotton jumper of the same colour. I'm sure she would have been expelled too if we hadn't handed in the termination notice already.

It's not just the head, it's the whole culture of each school

Yes but a good head helps to forge the culture of the whole school.

We see it all the time, in other areas, pubs - under new management etc.

Elf I agree with you - on your description of your peers at boarding school. I was private non boarding and it was pretty much the same.

Parents suddenly died, went bankrupt, brain tumours - beating up children, mother with severe MH issues and self harming..

But of course, all sheltered by their parents book collection and soft furnishings

Sunflower - no, it was a C of E primary.

Then they weren't expelled then.

That's shocking, Wherehestands.

There's no such restriction on both our daughter's state schools. I have to say the HT of her new (outstanding) state school is exceptional. Parents are invited to attend school assemblies once a term, and we can see he really gets involved. At the school fair, he even allowed paying children to throw wet sponges to his head. There's a real community spirit in the school, and parents like ourselves volunteer to help out because we're so pleased with the school.

I never thought I would send my child to a private school. As many posts highlight here it is not so much state vs private but the structure/culture and leadership of the school that makes a good school. In an ideal world we would not have to chose but we don't live an ideal education system, we have to work and think with the reality of the system we have.

My local state school had a very poor Ofsted and comments such as'teaching standards' were poor, lack of resources and brighter children not being stretched to their full potential, forced me to think about things.

I had to think about my child's education. If I had had an outstanding or good state school where I could have sent my child I would have.

After a lot of thought I sent my child to a local independent sch. It was a nightmare bullying teacher/evasive head. I removed them and sent them to another independent school which I had to beg to get into. My child now excels, there is an excellent head and caring teachers. If I had the choice of a 'good' or 'outstanding' state school I would have rather have sent my child there rather then stressing about fees.

But it is also down to guiding our children at home and not just relying on the school to do everything. Sometimes its just about circumstances with help from grandparents and only having one child I some how with great difficulty managed. There is no snobbery on my part I am just doing what I can to try and give my child a 'good' education and wish every child could have this.

Sometimes it is impossible to live by ideals when all you want is good education for your child.

Because you had a bad experience at one private school you feel in a position to comment on them all? Nonsense, OP, sorry.

Totally disagree with you OP. Different experience here! Our DS had terrible time at one of our local community school for years!...so we had no option but to move him to private education. The education provided now by the independent school is brilliant, teaching is outstanding and very inspiring in my DS's opinion. Plenty of resources and great pastoral care. The entire staff is highly qualified, approachable and popular & respected by the parents. Classrooms very peaceful and the children extremely polite, inclusive and eager to learn. Every teacher knows every pupil in the school as the number of children is very small, therefore nobody 'slips through the net'. My DS has the time of his life at his private school and made excellent progress which I have no doubt helped him securing a secondary school place at a good super selective grammar school in our area. We have nothing negative to say about the private sector because at our school the leadership is extremely good and the governing body go the extra mile to provide good education which is very pleasing for the children and parents. Sorry to hear about your experience!

There are some really excellent private schools, see link below.

www.best-schools.co.uk/uk-school-league-tables/

However, there are many so-so private schools, which are well below the standards of outstanding state schools. I am speaking from personal experience, for Nottingham schools.

If your local state school is awful, and there is no other option, then go the private route if and only if long term funding is not an issue. However, be aware that private schools are businesses and they are not answerable to anyone. Their complaint procedure is not worth the paper it's written on. Also, it's very difficult to change from a private school to a state school, as most state schools are over subscribed and full mid term.

Sunflower you are right most private school are businesses and not answerable to anyone. Especially Cognita schs. Their complaint procedures are a farce. When I complained at a certain North London Cognita school my child was at I got the most jaw dropping and obstructive answers to my complaint.

However I changed my child to to another private school ( ironically on the same road as the previous school) things could not be more different. The school is Catholic (I'm not Catholic) they try to keep their fee increases to a minimum. I would say it is not a profit driven school. They do lot of community events. They invited children from the local state school to watch the annual play the sch had put on this year. It is a very warm supportive school.

There excellent state schs, and poor state schs. There are excellent private schs and poor private schs.