Primary schools UK - How academic do you find them?

[TwoOddSocks]

This is a bit of a rambling question but as an expat that's lived in a few different countries but will probably settle back permanently in the UK before my DS starts primary I find myself completely lost.

We'll probably live in London but have quite a lot of flexibility in terms of exact location (commuter village, suburb etc.) and would mainly choose based on where our DS would be happiest. Are primary schools in the UK very formal (sit down at desks, learn reading and writing etc at 4 years old?!)?

We want my son to be happy and would prefer a school that allows particularly young children (

In state schools, Reception children ( ie those age 4/5) learn principally through play, with some focussed teacher time in short bursts-so say 15 mins with a teacher learning a new sound then 30/40 minutes in free flow activities where there will be opportunities to explore this in different contexts ( perhaps fishing in the water tray to find the same letters, making sand letters, ) alongside "play" activities in the dressing up//construction/model making areas, then perhaps another focussed session on number work and so on! Most year 1 classes ( 5/6) would have some elements of learning through play alongside increasing times of teacher focussed activities. Sit-down-at-a-desk becomes prevalent in year 2 though!!

Some schools might be more formal ( especially in year 1) some less so, it depends on the ethos of the school. You would need to look round a few and ask!
Private school can range from the sit-at-a-desk-all-day type to the do-what-you-want variety. You get what you pay for!

Schools vary bt generally Reception and a Year one are very play based and free flowing with nut much time at a table.
Older classes are more formal but there are communal tables rather than individual desks.
A lot have forest school or other outdoors activities but not as much as Germany for example. As for your child being the oldest that might not be your choice at state primary

Being a June birthday, your child WILL be the youngest.

Some state primaries do have three intakes into Reception (September for Autumn born - up to December 31st - January for Spring born - Up to Easter - and After Easter - for summer born up to August 31st).

Most though all start in the September in the academic year they turn five (September - August is an academic year).

Reception is play based - like nursery (sometimes called foundation 2 and nursery is foundation 1). There will always be whole class sessions in lessons (no more than 15 mins) before children move off to their areas - some with the class teacher doing an adult-led activity, some with the TA/Nursery Nurse doing another adult-led activity and the rest in 'areas of provision' doing child initiated activities but with 'instructions' as to what to do (linked to the lesson) but most do not participate in the way teachers 'want' them to - they do their own thing.

Year 1 is very dependent on the school although most continue the play based learning but with more children doing independent activities at tables, and less in 'areas of provision'. As time moves on, Y1 children become more independent and are taught in a more formal manner. Some Y1 schools (those who have a high intake of academic children) go straight to formal learning because the cohort of their school 'demands' it or they are more mature developmentally to withstand it at the age of five (girls more than boys at this age).

Year 2 is very formal learning. Whole class sessions on the carpet, with independent and adult led learning at tables in groups. There is a lot of practical based learning though and children tend to move quickly and often between different styles of teaching (sit down on carpet and listen, partner/group work, mini plenaries etc). They may have choosing time at the end of the day or end of the week.

By Y3 learning is formal - no play involved.

IMO, children are taught too much and are expected to progress at too fast a pace than they are developmentally capable of doing before they start Y3. There is an urgency by the government to 'raise standards' whereas the real reason is to top worldwide league tables with absolute no regard for child mental health (VERY target pushy).

If you can, lol at independents schools with an emphasis on personal and social well-being of the child, play based learning and allows children to progress with their learning at their own 'natural' pace rather than being hurried through target after target to achieve a government obsession!

In contrast to Riding, I would say look at state schools first. They are very play based in early years. All the independant preps beat us (tons within 10 mile radius) are more formal and are exam factories for state and private grammars.

A large proportion of independent schools in London are focused on getting the children into the appropriate secondary school. This is one of the major factors for parents in choosing a private prep.

Unless you are after one of the rather odd schools, then they will be much more full on from the start. A lot select at 4+ and again at 7+, and it is not unknown for children to be asked to leave if they are struggling, or not likely to make it to selective secondaries.

Personally, I think the academics at a good state primary are just right. There is no sitting in rows - it's mainly free-play for the first year and very child led.

My DD didn't want to learn to read in Reception - the staff just said that she would when she was ready and why should she be ready at 4. She's now 5.5 and finally decided that it's a fun idea and is racing ahead.

FWIW, I have a lot of friends in the USA with same age children and their kids at private nursery seem to spend hours and hours doing boring worksheets and letter practice, and the parents are stressed to the max if they're not perfect. Far worse than most UK parents and we're pretty bad!

Thanks so much for the replies it's great to have a picture of what actually goes on in the early years. I'm relieved to hear that school is mainly play based for the first few years at least (I had envisioned four year olds at desks for hours on end).

spanieleyes thanks for the response it's encouraging that there's a range of different schools to suit different kids/parents :)

Hoppinggreen - thanks for the information I shame I won't be able to sneak him into the next year group but understandable from the LEW point of view that there's a strict cut off.

Ridingthestorm (thanks so much for the detailed response - really useful!) I absolutely agree and would love to find a school that allowed the child's natural pace to dictate progress. At the moment he attends a great private pre school for 2.5 -6 year olds which is just like that and if I could find similar in the Uk I'd be over the moon.

elfonshelf & Blueundies- thanks for the responses. The pushy independent school conveyor belt is exactly what I'd like to avoid. I wouldn't mind paying for an independent school (if we can afford it) for the lower class sizes and perhaps less stressed teachers under less pressure from government targets but certainly not any school that has the attitude you describe. I'm guessing a state primary would have a broader range of abilities and a broader demographic which I'd like too.

My husband and I are both very academic and obviously it'd be great if my DS happens to be academic too but I definitely don't want to pressure him at the expense of his happiness.

Yes play based and emphasis on multi activities early on - as appropriate, but by Y5 if your dc is even moderately bright they will be bored and under-stimulated in my experience, then you'll be wishing they were more academic ....

If you can afford private maybe find a Montessori school? There's not many of them, but there are some.

However, I also think state schools are fine and not pushy or too academic in reception.

With a June birthday, there will probably be 3-4 children with July and August birthdays in the class of 30 - it's unlikely he will be the youngest.

Bear in mind that you may not get your preferred school in a crowded city like London.

Also - you apply mid Jan and DC start school that September - so you should try and be at the address you want to apply from before this, ie when DS is just under 3.5.

When we went to look around schools in order to choose one for DS, one of my key considerations was how long they keep up with the 'play-based, child led learning'. And there were huge differences.

At one school we were told that yes, reception is play based, however as they need to get the children ready for the more formal learning in Y1, they 'ease the children into it' by starting to become more formal half-way through reception. That's when homework starts, too (on top of daily reading).

Another school barely understood my question - of course reception is play based, and of course Y1 is when formal learning starts. Yes they will help the children adjust by going easy on them in the first half term of Y! but then it's 'school'. Including proper homework.

At my favourite school (though we ended up not choosing it due to distance) the head was able to explain to us exactly how this 'play-based' and child-led learning works in their school and it made so much sense. Also by having this clear system they are able to extend most of it into Y1. They get excellent academic results and are OFSTED outstanding so the lack of 'formal schooling' certainly doesn't cause any problems.
In this school we were told that the days start with the teacher explaining something to the whole class for maybe 10 or 15 minutes (e.g. introducing a new letter sound). Then there are two groups of 6 children each who work for 20 minutes with the teacher and the TA respectively. Then the teacher and TA move on to the next groups. The children who are not 'working' are 'playing' but in a disciplined way which reminds me of Montessori settings: Each child has a name tag which they go and put on a hook by the activity they want to do, when they have finished the activity (including tidying up) they go and move their name tag to the next activity. This is conducive to actually completing activities; and keeps the children aware of what they are doing; it is child led but doesn't invite the child to follow each whim and be easily distracted.
So every day each child has 15 minutes full class teaching, and 20 minutes group teaching. The rest is 'playing'.
In year one the full class teaching is extended to maybe 20, 25 minutes; and the group teaching to two separate sessions of 20 minutes each; the other 5 hours of the school day are still play.
In year two they have more 'work' time but still retain some of the play.
No homework at all (apart from reading).

So what I'm saying is, in state schools there are huge differences regarding how 'school' like the early years are. At some, you'll find the play based learning being dominant in YR and Y1 and still present in Y2; at others, there is barely a nod towards play based learning for half a year in YR and then it quickly turns into proper 'school'.

Oh and unfortunately this is hard to find out by reading a school's webpage/policies. DS is only in reception but already we have realised that most of the policies play no role at all in daily life. E.g. the policies say 'no homework in YR/Y1/Y2 except reading' but from week 3 of YR we were given homework (practicing letter formation, numeracy things) on top of the reading. So you get home at 4pm with a very tired 4yo and somehow need to fit in homework before bedtime...

And finally: Though at our school, the learning in YR IS play based to a large extent, they are still being taught at an amazing pace. The class has pretty much 'learned to read' (knows letter sounds and can blend and can make sense of short phonics books) and has learned to count to 20, and add and subtract 1 and 2; plus other things. So although YR is not in the shape of formal schooling, there is still quite an expectation for the children to make significant progress in the 'academic' things. In Y1 they will have to learn (if necessary: memorise) number bonds to 20, and spellings. Even if you find a school that keeps to play-based structure in Y1, the children will be taught much more than 5yo in most other European countries would be.

I don't think there is any flexibility about starting dates for children. Your DS will end up being one of the youngest in the year.

I thought reception (kindergarden) was pretty pacy when my DDs started. I was amazed when they came home with books to read to me on day one! I was expecting the ABCs and colours and counting to ten and larking around.

By year three, everything seems to be moving much too slowly. My DD in year 6 is bored to death. I think the children could all use more physical exercise at my children's school. I am told there isn't time in the timetable with all the academic demands. They whole approach seems wildly inefficient to me.

Don't forget that teachers are trained to cover the range of ages and pre school experiences.

All early years settings (0-5) should be following the EYFS curriculum unless they gave applied for and been granted exemption from their statutory duty.

Not necessarily hmc, my DD is in year 5 and very very bright she isn't bored as she gets appropriate work.
It depends on the school, they all vary and it's why we tried ( and succeeded thankfully) to get DD into ths school when we are just out of catchment.

What I would say is that, if you think you are moving to the London area, and exploring state schools, don't believe you can just look around a load of local schools and choose one you like the look of.

Firstly, you will need to be back in the UK applying from your UK address by the January (i.e. the January in which your son is still 3). Closing date for applications should be 15 January of the relevant year. Don't think you can move at Easter/in the summer and be part of the main admissions round.

Secondly, there has been a massive baby boom in recent years. Many parents find that there is only one local school they can realistically hope to get into. Lucky people may have a choice. Unlucky people might be pushing it to get in anywhere local. You need to research the area like mad, including admission criteria and catchment areas/effective catchment areas. The school you want may determine where you need to live to within a very few roads (and even then things like previous bulge classes and sibling bulges can throw a spanner in the works).

We used to live in London and liked three local schools, all of which were under half a mile away. We wouldn't have got a place at any of them.

We moved to a new town for exactly this reason. Here, we didn't get into the school 0.5 mile away, but luckily got into one slightly further away that we love.

YonicScrewdriver - thanks it's good to know that January is the deadline for living in the right location (we'd be due to arrive back in the summer so hopefully that gives us enough time to hunt and get established somewhere).

Meita - That school sounds great, I didn't realise there was such huge variation in play based Vs formal learning. At least then it's possible to get a school that matches my philosophy a bit better (if I'm lucky).

Homework during the evening with a tired, cranky four year old sounds a bit nightmarish to be honest!

I definitely agree from looking at school websites that it's hard to get any real impression if what the school is like in practise - guess it's just visits and asking parents!

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom and YonicScrewdriver thanks. Definitely good to be realistic that I can't expect to waltz into the neighbourhood and sign up to the best primary school in the area expecting a place.My knowledge of acceptance criteria is massively out of date (I was assuming 0.5 miles away would guarantee you entrance). Time to read up on catchment areas etc and look for areas where I'd be happy with all the local schools

Thanks so much for all of the replies - feel like I have a much better idea already!

Class sizes are restricted to 30 so furthest distance admitted varies year by year - lots of data available online for this though!

Yes to what Yonic says. You can look up the furthest admitted distance (on the distance criteria) for past years on most local authority websites. If they don't publish it, a freedom of information request can obtain it (though I think most areas do it now).

Particularly if you are keen for a particular school, and particularly if you end up in a suburb and not a commuter town, look out for 'randoms' as well. A school may have admitted out to 0.6 of a mile every year for the last 5, but if a whole load of flats have recently been built close to the school then that could suddenly shrink. Likewise if there has been a bulge class. A school near us took a bulge class in September 2012. For the September 2014 admission there were suddenly loads of extra siblings. So a school that has 60 places, and normally about 35-40 for non-siblings suddenly only had 18 non-sibling places and their effective catchment shrunk massively.

Your best bet is to move to an area where there are 3-4 schools you are happy with and which you 'should' get into. Though I'm aware that that's a bit of a holy grail.

If you are living in a commuter town, have a think about which London terminus station you need, if you have any idea, as that will help divide up the south east into possibilities.

I don't know any London primaries that don't have homework from the start. Ours seemed to have less than most:

YR - 1 school reading book a week, plus home reading every night to be entered in Record Book. Phonic sounds, blending and frequent words books to be done as often as possible if not every day. Holiday projects and the odd weekend project.

Y1: 2 school reading books per week plus daily home reading. Homework once a week: maths, 10 spellings, handwriting and 10 sentences using the spelling words. Holiday projects.

My nephew in YR at another school has 4 school reading books per week and written homework.

Personally I'm not a fan of homework at this age as it's really down to the parent. DD's school have been very good - she's very stubborn and refused to do any, and they were very gentle in encouraging her to do it and not making her feel she was in trouble - recently she's started cooperating and actually enjoys it.

Finding a school that understands that each child is different and will develop at different times and different paces is key imo.

One of my other criteria was finding a school where the staff were loving towards the children. If DD is crying in the morning (doesn't happen often), she is taken off for a big cuddle and distracted by being 'helper'.

One of my nieces attends a school where my sister heard a little girl in YR in the first week being told that big girls don't cry and to pull herself together :(

We didn't get the school we wanted initially, but went on the waiting list and got a place 3 weeks into term when a few children never turned up. So if you don't get your first choice there is always a chance of getting it later if you are happy to switch at short notice (and buy another set of uniform!)

There are local schools near me (non-London) like that Elf. Ours is:

YR- new reading book twice a week. Word tin. Nothing else

Y1 - new reading book three times a week. Handwriting once a fortnight. Nothing else.

Another local school has loads of projects, etc. Ours says that the holiday is for resting and getting ready to learn again!