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Problems with maths - DD hates it and struggles

11 replies

Campaspe · 16/01/2015 19:45

DD is in Y3. She has disliked maths and found it hard since Y1. She's bright - level 3s in everything apart from maths, which was a 2A. I thought this was brilliant, and am very happy for her to be average at maths, as we can't all be good at everything.

But in Y3, it's all feeling more difficult, and there are lots of tears over homework. Her teacher seems non-committal, tells me that DD is average, struggles to learn new concepts and gets upset about it all. I've been trying to get her to practice at home using a mixture of IXL, Mathletics and workbooks. Over the Xmas holidays, we spent 10 minutes a day practicing times tables. All great - but DD seems unable to retain anything mathematical, so as soon as we stop practicing, she forgets stuff.

I'm worried that DD might slip from being average - a position which I'm happy with - to actually falling behind, and looking ahead, I worry this will cause problems in the future.

These are the things she struggles with:
Place values - is OK-ish up to 1000, but confused by anything beyond that
Mental arithmetic. Struggles with addition such as 25+36 - maybe a 60% success rate
Telling the time - has just about got half past, will have a stab a quarter past and quarter to, but not confident. Still gets hour and minute hand mixed up.
All sorts of subtraction and division.
OK with number bonds up to 20, but can't do anything beyond that.
Can't halve numbers.

I end up not knowing where to start, so we lurch from one maths problem to the next. What is the answer? Chill totally and leave it to the school? A tutor? More practice at home - but if so, what and when? (DD loves her extra-curricular activities and does 3 a week, which doesn't leave much time for maths practice). I'm fed up, she's fed up, and it all feels like history repeating itself as I remember getting similarly upset about maths at her age. (I have a GCSE grade C, which I sweated blood for). Please share your tips/advice...grateful for any guidance. Thanks

OP posts:
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Cedar03 · 16/01/2015 20:18

Have you tried doing activities that aren't obviously homework?
What about getting her one of those build a clock kits then she will spend time thinking about time without it seeming like homework.
Also my daughter gets (Also year 3) her mental adding up wrong - we just encourage her to think again. getting her to add up numbers when we're out shopping helps. Again it's doing it without it being homework.
To my mind it's the teacher's job to teach her how to do it and they need to get her a strategy where she's not getting upset when she doesn't get it straight away but keeps trying.
If you're anxious about it then she'll think it's something to fear. And if spending time on it is making her anxious then it's not helping.
H will do number puzzles and she'll ask to help. It's fun maths - she's not being forced.

Justtoobad · 16/01/2015 20:29

Gosh I think you're expecting a lot of her. Telling the time is super hard at any age. Place value is so abstract. And maths takes time, she's I year 3 not GCSE.

coppertop · 16/01/2015 20:43

I had similar issues with one of my children.

One of the big stumbling blocks was very poor working memory. He was unable to hold more than one or two pieces of information in his head at a time, which meant that by the time he got to the second part of a question, he'd already forgotten what the first part was.

It also meant that he wasn't able to follow the teacher's instructions and so was struggling to understand even the most basic concepts of maths.

What worked for him was to go right back to the very basics of addition, subtraction etc. Instructions were broken down into individual steps so that he could follow them, and he was given lots of opportunities to practise the same things over and over.

Maths is never going to be a strong subject for him but he is now coping a lot better with it all.

It's worth looking into working memory if any of this rings any bells for you.

PastSellByDate · 17/01/2015 07:29

Hi Campaspe:

So been there. So first off I absolutely understand your frustration and your daughter's struggles and possibly bad attitude toward maths. It sounds to me like she is struggling to understand concepts and some of the mechanics of basic addition/ subtraction.

I think the first issue is the place value/ addition of numbers over 20 (i.e. learning to carry - not just on paper but mentally). I think once you leave off all fingers and toes conceptually working out additions beyond that can be a bit tricky.

So try something to work on that place value/ carrying issue which seems more like you're just playing a game with her:

Play 21/ black jack. Ace = 1/ 2 - 9 as marked/ Jack, Queen and King all equal 10. Object is to get as close to 21 as possible or equal it, without going over. If you go over 21 you're out.

Each player is dealt two cards. Say you get a jack and a four. 14. Do you stay put or take another card. I'll risk it - you're dealt a 5. Now you have 19. Stay put or risk it. and so on.....

Really works mental addition and all those number bonds.

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Snakes & ladders (with more than one dice) or backgammon. Start off with counting on - but gradually encourage your child to do the additions in her head.

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Number bond SNAP.

Easy version - for numbers to 20 (working 1 - 10 number bonds).

Take ordinary deck of cards - Ace = 1 and 2-9 as marked. Jack/ Queen/ King all = 10. Set a target - say 17 - write this down on a piece of paper. Flip over first card. Say it's an 8. What + 8 = 17. First to shout out 9 wins the card. Once you've gone through the entire deck the winner is the one with most cards.

More complex version - for numbers to 100.

Again - ordinary deck of cards. Ace = 1/ 2 - 9 as marked but Jack - 10/ Queen = 20 and King = 30. Decide a target - say it's 66. (I tend to write this down on a post-it - so there aren't disputes later - that kind of family - DH cheats!).

Anyway - this is slightly more complex - you flip two cards. Say your total is Jack + 8 = 18. What + 18 = 66.

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For subtraction:

play snakes and ladders backwards - using more than one dice (may have to play the board more than once).

play snap games - but take flipped card(s) away from target number - so target could be 38, flip a jack and an 8 you get 18 - so 38 - 18 = what?

DD1 really struggled with this - so we worked a lot with food. I found grapes & raisins worked really well for this. So take the same problem 38 - 18. present it as food. each tens digit is a grape and each unit digit is a raisin - 38 is 3 grapes and 8 raisins. You want to take away 18. So that's 1 grape for 1 ten and 8 raisins for 8 units (Put them on another plate). What do you have left on the first plate. 2 grapes and no units. So that's 2 tens = 20 and 0 = 20. So 38 - 18 = 20.

Then you can move on to problems that require borrowing. Keep ten raisins to the side for 'cashing in). So let's say you had 34 - 18 as a problem.

You'd start with 3 grapes and 4 raisins. Let's just start with the units first (because procedurally you always start with the units). Can you take 8 from 4 - no we don't have enough raisins. Right we'll have to cash in a grape for 10 raisins (10 units). That gives us 2 grapes (two tens) and 14 raisins (14 units). Now we can take away 8 units. What is 14 - 8. (If your DC doesn't know then eat 8 raisins or remove them and count what is left) - It's 6. So we've now got 2 grapes and 6 units (26) and we need to take away ten (one grape) (remember we've taken away the 8 units but not the 1 ten yet). So eat a grape/ remove a grape - you get 1 grape and 6 units or 16. so 34 - 18 = 16.

Now if you teach her that she can check her work by adding the answer (16) to what she took away (18) - she should get the original large number (34) - and in fact 16 + 18 = 34

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From what you say I would try taking time out now to get addition/ subtraction sorted out and develop speed/ ability is not really a problem. Your DC can catch up swiftly on multiplication later, but without these skills will seriously struggle with more complicated (ye olde long) multiplication/ division.

When you start learning times tables - there are all sorts of tricks but the most important thing is for you to approach it a bit mathematically - so by year 2 your child should have learned to count by 2s, 5s and tens - that's really the first 3 times tables you will learn.

x0 and X1 tend to be glossed over - but ensure she knows anything x 0 = 0 and anything x 1 = itself.

x3 is next - you can learn to count by 3s, you can use the lines on your fingers as a hand calculator. (it tend to count tips of thumbs because they don't have 3 lines, but all fingers have 3 lines) - so 4 x 3. Hold up 4 fingers, count the lines, 1-2-3 (1 x 3)/ 4 - 5- 6 (2 x 3)/ 7 - 8 - 9 (3 x 3)/ 10 - 11 - 12 (4 x 3). 4 x 3 = 12.

Once you have these core times tables you're home free. Just need to appreciate that x 2 is the same thing as doubling (taking a number and adding it to itself - i.e. 3 x 2 is the same thing as 3 + 3 both equal 6 and 9 x 2 is the same thing as 9 + 9 - both equal 18).

So with doubling you can unlock x4/ x6/ x8/ x12 tables:

x4 - double x2 facts
x6 - double x3 facts
x8 - double x4 facts or double x2 facts and double again
x12 - double x6 facts or double x3 facts and double again.

That leaves x9 and x11 - which have all sorts of tricks (I've posted extensively on that elsewhere) to learn based on number patterns and if you save x7 for last - because you've learned it for all over tables you really only have 7 x 7 left - and I fine if you remember 7x7 is a swine - you can remember that 7 x 7 = 49, since it rhymes.

but....as I said - get addition/ subtraction sorted out first & solid! Then tackle multliplication.
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There are some great free on-line maths sites with games that may be of help:

Woodlands Junior School Maths Zone: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/ - just select the area you want to work on and then have an explore of the various educational games/ resources and see which might help with your particular issue at the moment.

Maths Champs: this is divided into age bands - which can be a bit off putting for children who are behind - but the games are great fun and it does provide useful practice under pressure - so ideal for building up speed, once the skill is learned. www.mathschamps.co.uk/#home

BBC Bitesize KS1 (select highest difficulty) - may also help in places: www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks1/maths/ - your daughter may be resistant to this as she's KS2 - but this will give practice at core concepts and KS2 Bitesize is really intended for Y5/Y6 children.

If your DD gets to a place where she wants more problems to solve:

mathsdrills offers free worksheets: www.math-drills.com/

worksheet works (a US website) also has lots of useful maths worksheets & you can control difficult/ number of problems per page: www.worksheetworks.com/ - both will allow you to print out answer sheets.

If she starts to get to quite like maths and see the puzzle element as fun - try visitng NRICH maths (from Cambridge University) which has all sorts of maths problems to solve and stretch your DC: nrich.maths.org/frontpage
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I'm not familiar with mathletics - but I think you need to examine whether your child is having methods clearly explained to her. It's not just guesswork - mathematics really is procedure and understanding when & why certain methods are applied.

If you're in despair and really struggling can I advise you to try one more on-line tutorial.

For us DD1 had very unclear explanation of how to do maths in school and was muddling concepts. She was a bit at sea - so we opted for mathsfactor. Carol Vorderman presents this - a woman role model is important for girls to see I think - and because it's video, she's always happy and encouraging and amazingly positive about how much fun maths can be. Your child can rewind and watch it over and over until she 'gets it'. If mathletics isn't providing slow & clear explanation (with visual demonstrations reinforcing concepts) of how to perform certain skills - i.e. this is how we add using carrying/ multiplication is really multiple additions/ division is sharing things out equally etc.... then perhaps you need to try mathsfactor and see if this doesn't help. It certainly demystifies the language and the slow and steady (yes old fashioned) approach really can help give confidence to a struggling little mathematician.

I hope that helps.

PSBD

Campaspe · 17/01/2015 08:00

Thank you all, particularly Past. A out to take in here.

OP posts:
Dustypeas · 17/01/2015 08:41

I think your dd is doing Ok from what you say she is able to do - she's still very young. I would recommend Plus1 and Power of 2 programmes to help with basic maths skills. Also Maths Minutes - 10 mins daily of these programmes will really help with automatic recall of maths facts and will allow child to apply skills to more complex problems.

JustRichmal · 17/01/2015 08:53

Her teacher seems non-committal, tells me that DD is average, struggles to learn new concepts and gets upset about it all.

[hmmm]

Your dd learns maths at whatever rate she learns maths and the one thing that will make this both more difficult for her to learn and difficult for you teaching her is the anxiety that it is beyond her.

This is what I found out from teaching 1 to 1 at home, so I hope some of it helps.

Introduce new topics by telling the child you are just telling the child about something and don't expect them to understand it first time. This will take away the anxiety of struggling to understand.

In the gaps between doing maths the subconscious seems to work on it, so just walking away and repeating the same topic some time later (within a day or so), their understanding will improve.

Understanding maths is something that builds up each time they return to it. If you get her to indicate with her thumb how well she has understood it this time, she will see she is making progress.

Teaching maths 1 to 1 involves a lot more listening to your child than getting the child to listen to you. You have to be prepared to adapt what you are saying if your child says that they do not understand. It is easy to get frustrated when you think that what you are saying is blindingly obvious, but always make sure the child feels like their questioning is expected and sensible.

People learn by doing rather than by being told, so always give lots of examples to do.

Give your child time to work thing out. It can be tempting to just give them the answer if they are hesitating, but they learn so much more by getting to the answer themselves. It is a balance between giving them a chance to answer, but giving help if they are struggling to the point of finding it tedious.

Always take the lead from the child as to how much they want to do. (Don't think that you can just finish a section, you can always start it again next time).

Try and pick a time when your child is not tired; mornings, weekends, holidays.

Little and often is best. Keep thing light and fun. Lots of colourful illustrations of what you are saying help.

I used to teach one sum a day of the times tables, going over the same sum on the way back from school as on the way there.

The resources I used were mainly the Letts revision guilds and workbooks. My dd liked their mythical maths series to work on by herself. However, if you do want to work from books, it would be best to go into Smiths or Waterstones together and find ones you like best. Also get an A4 pad of squared paper to give lots of space to do rough work.

Tzibeleh · 17/01/2015 08:55

If you have an iPad, try DoodleMaths. It's very child-friendly, works at the child's level and moves levels with the child. My dc loved it when they were struggling, and still play on it even now that they have moved on beyond it.

To help you support your dd, read Maths For Mums and Dads. Maths is taught differently to how it was when we were kids. The book explains the current strategies - and also helps refresh our own knowledge!

Campaspe · 17/01/2015 09:45

Thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the trouble. I need to read your replied really carefully and note stuff down. Grin

OP posts:
ChlorinePerfume · 17/01/2015 13:56

My friends DD also had problems with maths. She has subscribed her Dd to maths whizz and it seemed to have helped a lot. She went from a child who would get really upset in class because she could not do the work to a confident child who is now loving maths. The games adjust in difficulty level depending on previous results and the child can earn points for which they can then "buy" food for their virtual pet dragon or something like that. So a real incentive for the child to go back regularly. I think with maths it is little and often that makes the difference.

Ferguson · 17/01/2015 16:53

This is my standard help regarding Numeracy. The most important thing is UNDERSTANDING the maths concepts, not just learning a set of instructions that the child doesn't understand:

?QUOTE:

Practical things are best for grasping number concepts - bricks, Lego, beads, counters, money, shapes, weights, measuring, cooking.

Do adding, taking away, multiplication (repeated addition), division (sharing), using REAL OBJECTS as just 'numbers' can be too abstract for some children.

Number Bonds of Ten forms the basis of much maths, so try to learn them. Using Lego or something similar, use a LOT of bricks (of just TWO colours, if you have enough) lay them out so the pattern can be seen of one colour INCREASING while the other colour DECREASES. Lay them down, or build up like steps.

So:

ten of one colour none of other
nine of one colour one of other
eight of one colour two of other
seven of one colour three of other

etc,

then of course, the sides are equal at 5 and 5; after which the colours 'swap over' as to increasing/decreasing.

To learn TABLES, do them in groups that have a relationship, thus:

x2, x4, x8

x3, x6, x12

5 and 10 are easy

7 and 9 are rather harder.

Starting with TWO times TABLE, I always say: "Imagine the class is lining up in pairs; each child will have a partner, if there is an EVEN number in the class. If one child is left without a partner, then the number is ODD, because an odd one is left out."

Use Lego bricks again, lay them out in a column of 2 wide to learn 2x table. Go half way down the column, and move half the bricks up, so that now the column is 4 bricks wide. That gives the start of 4x table.

Then do similar things with 3x and 6x.

With 5x, try and count in 'fives', and notice the relationship with 'ten' - they will alternate, ending in 5 then 10.

It is important to try and UNDERSTAND the relationships between numbers, and not just learn them 'by rote'.

An inexpensive solar powered calculator (no battery to run out!) can help learn tables by 'repeated addition'. So: enter 2+2 and press = to give 4. KEEP PRESSING = and it should add on 2 each time, giving 2 times table.

There are good web sites, which can be fun to use :

www.ictgames.com/

www.resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/index.html

UNQUOTE

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