Town vs village school. Please help!

[Cinderelmer]

I'm having a dilemma. Applying for a reception place for my DD. For our first choice there are two main options, and I keep swinging from one to the other in my mind, and really need to make up my mind now.

Do I:

a) Send her to the school where she is currently settled in nursery 3 mornings a week. We sent her here for nursery because they allowed part time and were flexible whereas other options were not.

It's a village primary school (C of E, VA) with approx 60 children on roll. Her nursery class has 6 children, the reception class they share a classroom with (and a teacher + 2 TAs) has 12, which is the biggest year group in the school. There are two years per class/teacher throughout the school, although still with relatively few children per teacher. It seems lovely, and I'm happy with how she is doing now.

They are proud of the fact that they can offer plenty of trips etc because of small numbers and that all the children get their chance to "shine". It is ofsted 'outstanding' and according to the head, came in the top handful of schools in their region of England league tables this year. The fact that it is a C of E school doesn't particularly bother me although given an all things being equal choice, I would prefer it wasn't.

Ten minute journey door to door, I have to drive.

b) The bigger, fully subscribed school in my town. Not a church school. 60 intake per year. Also outstanding. I have visited and the head is lovely and welcoming, and the school doesn't feel 'big' even though it is. Anyone local I have interrogated spoken to has good things to say about it.

They offer a much wider range of during/after school clubs although not as many trips. They have their own pool, although the head said they don't know how much longer they will afford to keep it. The facilities are lovely, the children seem happy, artwork everywhere, I wish I went there myself.

Either a ten mintue drive (with traffic/parking) or a 20-25 minute walk.

I live a couple of metres further than the last to get in last year although apparently that was a particularly large year group with lots of siblings. So a fair chance but no guarantees.

Big BUT- this is an infant school with a linked junior school. The two schools are on the same site but run very separately. The junior is rated as 'good' by ofstead, C of E, VC, and pushes the religious aspect on their website quite strongly. They don't let prospective infant parents visit, aren't very informative on the phone (just refer to the website) nor have I managed to find anyone with a child there or gauge local opinion. I'm sure they're fine, considering they are filled with the same children as the infant school, but it's hard to tell.

So, what do I do? Does anyone have an opinion on mixed classes or any of this really!? This area is really quite over subscribed, so am unlikely to get into a lovely larger school in my town further away than this. So I stick with what I know with a) and hope my worries about mixed year group teaching and possibly quite limited and 'intense' friendship groups are unfounded? or go with b) with it's undoubtedly 'better' facilities, and a wider group of peers but an unknown entity of a junior school. Perhaps we will afford to move during DD's infant years, but I don't know about the chances of moving her into the juniors of a different school when they are all so oversubscribed, but it's a possible possible option. She is very likely to go to one of the 'big' local secondaries. My DD seems to be able (well, I think she's a blinking genius but then don't they all!) but is shy and only just 'coming out of her shell'.

ARrrrrrgh. This raising children business is hard! Help or advice would be very much appreciated. x

Bigger school for me - there have been lots of threads on large v tiny. To me school is not just about Sats but the zillions of other opportunities a big school brings. 60 intake is average not big

Depends - is this you forever home? If not, when or where do you think you'd like to live? Once the kids start getting social lives it's brilliant to be walking distance from their friends. We moved to a bit of our town where all 3 schools are walking distance and it's been amazing.

big school.

Thank you.

That's it, it's the "zillion other things" in thinking of, although it's hard trying to imagine ahead when I've got one child and she's only the and a half. So, the unknown junior school wouldn't be a factor?

This is unlikely to be our forever house but I can't see us moving far. I have local family (Hertfordshire) and this is far enough out of London for me, and for dh's commute. He would live in the proper sticks though, on the edge is our compromise!

In terms of friends and where they live, it takes me as long to get across town here as it does to get past the village school and off the map so I guess it's the luck of the draw in terms of distance to friends houses. Though it would be nice ideally to be v local.

The local school is my instinct but wish I didn't have worries about resettling her and the junior school to conplicate matters. Hmmm, am pondering, thanks for the thoughts....

^^ Please forgive the stupid number of spelling mistakes, I did go to school myself, promise!

My other thing is the claustrophobic nature of small school - what if she doesn't gel with the 5-10 in her year? What team sports etc will she have open to her? What about orchestra?
I would be less concerned if I was a SAHM and could make sure she could do sports, music, choir etc out of school to get bigger circle of friends. Bit limiting and less likely to bring her out of her she'll tho. Junior doesn't worth me as I am sure it would be fine

Little school. Happy, confident children and no one gets lost. I send mine to a similarly sized school. Despite the size, ds1 has excelled at music, ds2 was confident enough to speak in the school play and there are plenty of clubs: choir, chess, gardening, football, rugby, cricket, running, recorders, art, archeology. There's a lot to be said for having the same teacher for two years - it gives the kids stability. I wouldn't switch to a bigger school for any of my three dc.

Another issue is childcare - things might change and you may need this (brilliant if/when you have another baby.) A larger school will have more local childminders who do the schoolrun. Plus more variety of playground mum friends for you!

Am I right that your DD is August born?

In the little school with mixed year groups it might be nice for her not always to be the youngest in the class.

DS is also August born. He has 8 children in his Reception class this year and it's been totally brilliant for him. They've had the time and capacity to support him with the things he's needed help with (like dressing ) and the small numbers have meant that he's had a chance to actually get to know the other children properly and form friendships. In a big group I think the others would just have been faces in a crowd and he would have flitted about, never really stopping to think about anyone else.

That said, DS's school expands at Y3 which I am pleased about for the sports etc.

She is June born. But still relevant I think. It's why this nursery have been so good for her, they have time for all of them. I don't worry about her academically, but I do worry about her confidence. But that is probably me projecting and I will worry however old she gets!

Howto, that's interesting. This village school doesn't seem to have many clubs although offers music lessons.

Do you have a good opinion on mixed year teaching? I want to smack myself for saying it, but surely the more able in the class will be at a disadvantage when in the older year, especially if their tiny peer group has no one to compete with? Actually, at any level, surely it's better to have others at equivalent abilities? I'm totally projecting, and now sound like a twat, but I was easily top of a class of 25 but one which had a notable number of underacheivers and distruption in what was actually a good school. The lack of peers to stretch and challenge me meant I was bored (but well behaved!). Anyway, my primary class position did me little good in the long run (clearly) and I'd far far rather dd is happily in the middle. But I do worry that small mixed classes would put dd at a disadvantage should she turn out to be bright. Ok, I'll stop waffling and get on with smacking myself now.

Thanks all for your advice, I really appreciate it. x

The mixed year teaching hasn't been a problem. DS2 is placed with the year above for one of his subjects, so he goes to the classroom next door, but that's fine as all the kids know each other and they've all worked with different aged kids before (last year he was in the same class as these kids). Some kids go to different classrooms for literacy/phonics. I think the mixed age thing makes it easier to do some things by ability not age. At y6, a number of kids do the L6 tests in English and maths every year, so I'm happy that the children who need stretching get stretched.

The teachers are used to teaching classes with a range of children's abilities, but because the school's so small the teachers know the children's abilities very well indeed. It just means that children get individual differentiation.

When the Y6 children leave, because it's such a small school, there's time for each child to talk about their experience of the school, and their treasured memories, and have the teachers talk about how they've grown up over the years they've been in the school. All the children and all the parents come to the Y6 leavers service, because they all know each other. When the children move on to secondary, they don't all go to the same school, but they almost always go to a school where they know older pupils, who used to be at primary school with them. It's this sort of close-knit community that I really like - it's good to see the older kids supporting the younger kids, and great to hear it goes on after they move to secondary. When my ds1 was in reception I was a bit about him sending Christmas cards to all the girls in Y6 but it's that sort of place :)

OP, I wrote a really long message and lost it all, let's try again...

DD is in Y1 now and I had exactly your predicament (almost... slight logistical/geographical differences but nevertheless similar). When I was PG with DD we moved to a large village because of the Outstanding school within it's catchment. It was the type of school where you would move house to get into it. Excellent results etc etc. Intake of 60 a year like your town school.

When DD was two we sent her to a private academic preschool near us it had a great reputation but was based around learning and structure (they had to wear uniforms etc). This particular preschool was not linked to any of the local schools and the children who left went to all of the schools in the area. So the Proprietor of the preschool, who made sure that he knew all of the children as well as he could, had a good grasp on all of the local schools and where your child would best fit in, based on what he knew.

When it came to choosing schools we asked his advice and he told us that he didn't think the 'Outstanding' school would suit dd. DD is very quiet and was also very small for her age. He felt that she would be swallowed up in the larger school (DD is also June born) and that he thought we should look around for something smaller. There are about 5 or 6 small village schools within a couple of miles of us so we went and had a look at some. Incidentally the 'Outstanding' school told us that we couldn't go to look unless it was an Open Day, which put me off straight away and we never went to see it.

DD chose another village school, they have a reception intake of 15 generally (although 21 last year because it was a high birth rate) and the classes are mixed. When we put in our application the Ofsted rating was Outstanding also, but in the April before DD started it changed to Good, which was a little disappointing but hey ho.

Well DD loves her school and is so happy there. She's no longer the quiet, shy girl that she was. She's never going to be one of the loudest, but she stood in front of the whole class the other day and read a piece of homework that she'd done on the Great Fire of London. She works with the Year 2s on Spellings and Reading and is in the top Year 1 set for Maths/Literacy.

The negatives (yes there are some) are the friendship groups. DD started school when there was a particularly feisty group of girls who had come from the adjoining preschool. There were only 7 girls in the reception class all with strong personalities. Occasionally DD wouldn't have anyone to play with and I used to worry so much. But according to her teacher (and her!), she's quite happy to be on her own and chooses to sometimes. But she's never short of playdates.

The other negative is that I'm not sure whether they push academically as much as I would like. I went to a grammar and would have liked DD to do the same, but she's so happy there I don't have the heart to consider moving her.

So all-in-all I think we made the right choice. I would prefer there to be more children for her to play with but that may be just her. The older children are amazing at the school and always look out for the little ones. Sports Day was a joy, DD tells everyone that 'I loved sports day because I came last so I got the loudest cheer!!!'. I volunteer in the school one afternoon a week and the atmosphere is just amazing, really fabulous.

Sorry about the ramble but I hope at least some of this helps...

DS1 (June) started in reception in September and we choose the smaller village school (20 PAN, mixed classed from Year 1) over the large 3 form school. Both schools are ofsted good and consistently good SATs year and year. So it was really down to the feel of the school and where we felt DS would feel most comfortable and give him the opportunity to build his confidence, and the everyone-knows-everyone, we're one big family feel that the smaller school could offer was the best fit.

I choose a small village primary, for my oldest 2 children.
Lovely friendly school.
We moved house and sent youngest 2 children to private prep school ( no spaces at primary, older 2 now in Senior School) . It's a great Prep school, but it is no better ( other than looks)than the small village primary.

Please check the % SEN with the smaller school. My daughters old school had and still has a very high % out of 80 ish pupils. Staff also share teaching rolls so one class can have two different part time teachers. Sometimes you can end up lots of boys or lots of girls in a single year group. For us 6 girls and 3 boys.

Freindship choices are very limited and groups once formed are hard to join or leave for that matter.

Mixed classes have advantages, but when the school accelerate children and you end up with a split year 2 added to y3/y4 it may not work that well. It did not for my daughter. Personally think the teacher struggled (understandably) with 3 year groups. Not to mention the remaining year 2s left in the lower class and the resentment of the the Y4 parents having Y2s added to their childs class!

I would not choose it again, but others love it.

Staff being part time can happen in any size school. I have experienced it in a 2 form intake and a 15 year intake.

Friendship choices can be limited in a 2 form as well as a 15 year intake.

It really comes down to how you feel for both.

I have experienced both 2 form entry a 15 year entry and a private school that had 6 in reception and a mixed year 1 & 2 that had 11 students

Through my friend I have knowledge of a 4 form entry.

The problems that parents report at the same

*Issues with friendship (yes can be limited in larger schools if they dont merge the classes well - if there is set groups that are fairly " hard core in set up" (as in not letting others in) - if there is specific demographics that do not wish to mix.. - i am not saying it is always that way just that it can happen)

• Issues w teachers

• issues w SEN

• Issues with travel to/from school

• After school care / breakfast club

*Homework (too much too little)

• not challenging the child enough

• over stretching the child.

I have lived walking distance to the school. Yes it was great.
I now live almost 3 miles from the school through non walking/cycling small lanes " It really isn't as much of a issues as I was led to believe it would be"

With the private school we had a 1.5 mile journey we biked it I LOVED that. However we lived somewhere that was possible to do.

What it ultimately comes down to is

What school has the type of ethos that YOU will feel happy about.

You will get through periods of friendship angst no matter how huge or how small the school are.

You will have periods where you feel your child is not managing in some way or the other..

You will have periods where you have issue w homework.

You will find the school travel annoying NO MATTER how short it is.

So work out what school where you feel you will be listened to. Where your child will thrive and flourish. As at the end that is what will make a happy child who wishes to learn. If the environment is one that makes the child feel all is well.

My youngest is in a 15 intake school having only experienced this from reception. Over my 4 children (we moved when oldest was in year 5) I found the smaller school amazing and wonderful for experiences. friendship issues were LESS than in the 2 form entry dd1 and 2 started in.. more than what they were in the tiny private school dd2 and ds were in for a while. Size doesn't always matter. My ds left the school with 3 level 6. My dd2 who is very dyslexic left the school with huge support and help that was carried to her now 2ndary school where she is getting the aid she needs with her exam GCSE's later this year. For me the smaller school has managed to stretch over a very wide area.

My friend who has a child in a similar sized school (that actually is classed outstanding ours is "only" good) has huge struggles to get the help her dyslexic son needs. Another friend who has a very able child in a 4 form entry struggles to get him pushed enough. Yet her friend who has a child in same school who struggles with reading and math praises the schools efforts to the rafters. Friend whose child went to the same infant dd2 went to LOVED it. We moved dd2 out of the school as it failed aiding her with dyslexia (said it didnt exist) Both girls are now on par in predicted GCSE's however that would not have happened had we kept dd2 there.

It is not as simple as saying " small school has this issues and big doesnt" big has this issues and small doesnt"

it will ALL come down to each individual school.

So ask yourself. What one of these schools will I feel comfortable challenging things with? How will they respond, How will they help>?

And often you can work it out that way.

My youngest is at a village school 3 miles from where we live. I have been told many times I am a snob for sending her there and not to the local 2 form town school (has not as good a local rep as the 2 village schools) However truth is she is there because when we moved to the town we live in now. Local town school did not have room for the 3 children I had in education only for 1. Village school had room for all 3. Hence they ended up there..

Things are not always as they seem.

Wow, thank you all for such thoughtful replies. Really, it's given me so much to think about and helped me calm down over the whole thing.

Frikadellen, thanks for the reminder that you really can't generalise based purely on size/set up. It really is down to the individual school/child combination and I realise you can only do so much to predict this.

Missy, the %SEN seems low in both schools, particularly the small, but thanks for the tip and I've since found out there is apparently very good provision in the larger school for any problems which is reassuring.

There is a part time teacher in the current school, so the yr1-2 class gets split between the N-R and 3-4 classes a couple of sessions a week. Since writing the OP, I have found out the N-R teacher will be going on maternity leave at some point before the end of this year, to return in the Autumn term. However the baby will only be a couple of months old, so I wouldn't bet on her being back before Christmas. Obviously these things happen in any school/workplace, but it's unclear as yet how they will cover her.

I am going to speak to DH tonight and make a final decision, but at the moment I'm swaying towards applying for the larger school purely because I like the feel of the place just as much as the village school and it seems to present a greater variety of opportunities. I am however, a lot more relaxed having heard positive anecdotes both ways, and feel more confident that the village school will be fine if she doesn't get in elsewhere. And if she goes and I realise we've made a massive mistake, I can always move her back.

Thank you all so much, I'm really grateful xx