Should I do more re unkind behaviour towards Yr 4 DD?

[MyFirstName]

A bit of background: DD (Yr4) is quite confident, but also sensitive and kind. She does not have one particular Best Friend (though she often says she wishes she had) but instead is a largely part of a group of 3. The other 2 girls A and B have been friends since babyhood. DD joined the school in Yr 3.

Both A and B have been over for play dates. Both seemed lovely girls, polite, friendly, lively but generally well-behaved. Friend A is a stronger character - likes to lead games, can get upset if things are not going her way. Friend B is happier to be go along with others - a bit quieter and less likely to get upset.

There are often issues in threes and DD has come home feeling upset at the behaviour of Friend A (stronger character). She has described situations where A has said unkind things ( eg "You are a stupid idiot") or taunted DD. Or A has blanked DD and gone around in a strop for an afternoon. These incidents often seem to happen on the days when DD and B have a shared extra-curricular activity. I think A is jealous/feels left out and is lashing out. Friend A tends to hit out (so to speak) at DD rather than friend B and DD often ends up having to find someone else to play with.

These instances happen bad enough for DD to tell me about them almost as soon as school is over about once a fortnight. I think I can tell from her behaviour/how she treats her little brother that they happen maybe a little bit more frequently than this (but not as bad) maybe once or twice a week. However, the instances do tend to be totally forgotten the next day and everyone is best of friends again.

There was a run in today though and DD is feeling very vulnerable/upset about it. I think she is tired of having to tip-toe around Friend A, about the flashes of jealousy. I have talked stuff through with her and am trying to help her deal with this. I do not want to say just ignore it. I got told that crap advice as a kid and it did me no favours what so ever! So far I have

1. Made suggestions that maybe DD needs to work out if the whole group is worth it if one of the people is not a good friend. Or indeed maybe B is not such a great friend if she lets A be mean. Got DD to acknowledge that she is worth more than that and she does not have to put up with rubbish behaviour from anyone - particularly not so-called-friends.
2. We have role-played a few come-backs for her to use if Friend A says something mean: "Did you mean to be so unkind?" "How would you like it if I said that to you?" "Meh...what is your problem?"
3. DD and I have agreed that at the moment Friend A is "winning" - ie Friend A gets jealous - hits out verbally (or with silent treatment) to DD, DD goes off to play elsewhere...ergo Friend A has got what she wanted - B to herself. So DD knows she has to stand up to A. To say something. To stand her ground.
4. DD is worried - actually no - scared - that if she answers back then Friend A will go running to a teacher/Lunchtime Supervisor and the DD will end up being told off. DD is the sort of child who hates being told off - will do everything the teacher says, compliant, helpful and has been told off so rarely that if it happens it devastates her. I have said I will talk to DD's teacher - not to get DD"s teacher to deal with Friend A, but to let her know there is an issue, that DD will deal with it following our role-plays - but I think teacher needs to be aware in case anything kicks off iyswim. If Friend A does cry to the teacher.

Btw I would like to apologise if my description of Friend A is a little unsympathetic. She can be lovely - but several times in the last few weeks she has been the cause of upset for my DD and the deep primal part of me does want to go up to A and tell her not to be such a nasty, bossy possessive cow and worse language I shan't of course. But quite honestly, right now I don't like her.

This has been going on for some months now. We have role-played the come-backs before but DD has never used them as everything is always OK again the next day and then DD loses courage. But I think she is getting sick of the yo-yo. As above - it is only the odd occasion and the next day everything is OK again. DD said the word bullying, I said it was not really bullying but it was absolutely unkind behaviour, not acceptable from a friend and needed dealing with. Am I minimising this? Or Overplaying it?

Should I be going in and asking the teacher to do something more? I really would like DD to learn how to stand up for herself now, as I think it will be invaluable going forward.

Does anyone else have any other suggestions on how to help DD?

I am sorry this is so long - she is my pfb and I want to make the hurt go away.

(Oh and am aware have only heard DD's side to the story but the repeated nature of stuff seems to stack up a bit of evidence of something happening)

Sorry about typos/grammar - is late

Have a chat to the teacher, not in a 'what are you going to do about it' way, but a 'would like you to be aware of what impact this is having on DD' way. Sometimes this sort of behaviour is insidious and always happens when other adults aren't around, so letting the teacher know means she/he can keep an eye out for it. The teacher may also be able to encourage other friendship groups for your DD by pairing her up with other students or encouraging her to join lunchtime clubs or undertake other activities during breaks.

You're doing the right thing in encouraging her to stand up for herself and not allow Friend A to ride roughshod over her, but this is a big step to learn. Encouraging the friendship with B won't work (eg, inviting her over for playdates without A) because A will just turn nasty about it. Try and steer her towards others that she may make connections with (this works well if the teacher is also trying to guide her towards others) - eg if she starts talking about another student regularly, ask if she would like to invite her over to play for example.

Thank you. I will talk to the teacher - in the vein you suggested. I am just hoping that DD finds the courage to say something the next time it kicks off. (DD says that is anyone ever dares call Friend A bossy then A kicks off in a real temper) I wish I could give DD a magic feather (like Dumbo) to give her the inner strength to face it. Actually, maybe I will have a chat with her about Dumbo and the feather - see if we can come up with something silly to help her.

I know I should not be projecting my own childhood experiences on her but I want her to not just "walk away" like I was told to.....as that just meant, for me, the bullying went on unchallenged until it got too miserable to bare. If she learns to tackle the low-grade shittiness in earlier stages then I am hoping she will not suffer/not have to deal with the deeper, nastier stuff as she gets older. I really think the bullies know who will just "ignore it" or "walk away" - these are the easy targets and are the ones that will be made to suffer. I would like DD to have the body language to show "Give me shit and I will call you on it." Again, imho it is something bullies can read in body language - and they tend to leave such people alone.

Any other suggestions welcome.

Oh and I have been trying for month to encourage other friendships and it only works up to a certain point and the three end up thick as thieves still.

Have you spoken to the parents? If my daughter was unkind, I'd want to know.

Do you know the parents? Could you share your concerns with them? I know this doesn't always work but I let DS2's "bullying friend"'s mum know what was going on. She sorted it and apologised.

Don't talk to the parents, let the school do that if necessary.
What does your DD do outside school? Can she join Brownies, dancing, drama, a sport club, choir? Preferably with where not everyone comes from her school.
Invite other children over for play dates.

Can the school run a social skills club? What about running a playground games session (bringing in parent volunteers if necessary to teach playground games)? Lots of children find the social side of school tricky and need help. Are there any lunch time clubs she could Join?

I am revisiting this thread (an apologies for the epic first post) .

Situation stabilised for a bit. There was the odd hiccup but everything seemed far better - to the extent we invited both friend A and B over for DD's birthday sleepover. Unfortunately as this was in the holidays neither could come --DH and I were quite glad A couldn't come).

Since then A & B have both "broken up" with DD. They are excluding her quite obviously and lots of low grade unkindness, the odd childish tongue sticking out. DD has been playing with other people and seemed happy enough - apart from the fact that A & B are still carrying on this low grade stuff.

After 10 days of it (since the break up) I think it has got to her. Floods of tears today. DD has said she will talk to the teacher. So we are going in together tomorrow.

DD, in her dream world, would like A to bugger off (my words not hers) and for her and B to wander off into the sunset as best friends for ever. She knows that this will not happen. DH and I are working hard on her self-esteem to make her believe that she is worth more than crappy hot and cold friends. I have talked to her about the fact we can ask her teacher to encourage other friendship groups. DD does not want her ex friends to get in trouble.

What else can/could the teacher do if we talk to her? It is not really bully - but just low grade stuff gone on too long. After 4 months plus of this rubbish I am just glad that DD realises something has to change. But want to manage her expectations really.

I really feel for your DD. Poor thing. At least the holidays are coming.

You say she joined in Y3? I imagine A felt very insecure and lashed out. The sad truth is that you DD just has to completely write these girls off. They probably will not be friends with her, well, not in primary school at least.

Sorry, meant to say...

It is bullying. It's not just friendship issues. If these girls don't want to be friends with your DD then that's unfortunate, but fine. But they don't then get to carry out low level nastiness.

If B was a good friend to your DD, B would have called A on her behaviour, and been there to comfort your DD. B is not a good friend.

(I expect B may be flattered by A's attention. I wonder if B's not sowing seeds of discontent with A and playing your DD and A off against each other?)

I think your DD needs to wake up to the fake friend B is. Forget walking off into the sunset with her.

Oh I know about B being an awful friend too - and have thought very similar things.

Have pointed out to DD that if B was so wonderful she would have stood up for her/been kind. DD not happy hearing anything bad about B, but I think she is slowly listening as I do point out a few (gentle) truths about the situation. 'Tis tricky as DD very loyal so it is really hard for her to understand this kind of behaviour.

Have pointed out she has had none of this shit from any of the other girls she plays with.

I have a yr 4 dd. She's in a group of 3 but they tend to swap around as to who's in and who's out. They've known each other since they were babies.

It seems to have been resolved by the teacher sitting a 4th girl with them. So now there are two pairs, and nobody is left without a partner for activities, playtime. The teacher tried another girl first, and that didn't work. Then G came along who's funny and bolshy and they all warmed to her.

Generally I think the answer is to get her to broaden her horizons. Mine's got more friendly with the 4th girl because they both do breakfast club on a Thursday.

But quite a few of them are what I'd describe as verbally abusive at times and throwing strops. They don't really have any loyalty yet. It's a learning process to get mine to react appropriately i.e. not just stand there like a lemon when someone's telling her she's stupid and ugly.

I definitely wouldn't speak to the parents. It just makes people defensive. I would speak to the teacher however and see what they can suggest to help.

I have mentioned it to the teacher in a "Please keep your eye on it" kind of way - but understandably the teacher cannot do much without DD saying something too. Just glad DD finally happy to speak to her and make it"official" iyswim.

Yes that's a start. There's been a few times where I've said to dd, you need new friends, these ones are no good. For them all to make up and it all start again.

Hopefully the teacher will find someone nice for her to pair up with.

We spoke to the teacher this morning who was fab.
I told the teacher I/we was not looking for the threesome to be "fixed" - it has been going on to long and would just slip back into the same pattern - but instead for the teacher to help DD with new friends. (DD is very friendly with everyone else but just wants to belong to a group iyswim)

The teacher told DD that she had beeb really amazing for trying to sort it out herself but now it was time for her teacher to help. Teacher said she will sit down with DD this morning and have a chat about it and work out some ways to help her feel settled in some other friendship groups. She will call me later today.

Am so glad DD finally agreed to talk to the school about it. I did not want to push it before - and it was tricky as there would be a flare up and then all be fine the next day. I think that the week or so of continual friendship exclusion has made DD tired of it all.

It may kick of and get worse before it gets better but I am hoping we are on the right road now!

My daughter's class in primary school was awful at times for rows and petty squabbles amongst the girls. Different to your situation I know OP, different kids were left out each time, but the teacher held a weekly group where the girls could discuss their behaviour, who had been a good friend, how they felt etc. It did help and it is useful to get kids to reflect on behaving properly.

It is great to hear stories of teachers dealing really well and proactively with these kind of problems.

I don't agree that it is NEVER right to talk directly to other parents. I know that in general it is a bad idea, but I do also know a few cases where parents were able to sort out a problem very effectively; it depends on the individual people involved.