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Yr1 child - top phonics group but slow reader - how can this be?

213 replies

sugarhoops · 18/11/2014 10:59

Was told today by another mum that my year 1 DD is in the top group in the class for phonics, but is a little behind others for reading (this mum has a DD who, apparently, is 2nd highest reader in class, but is in a phonics group below my DD).

Putting aside for a moment how on earth this mother knows all this info Confused - to be fair she helps out in class sometimes, I just wondered how this can be re: the top phonics group but lower reader level?

I had no idea where my daughter was at against others in the class - parents eve last week the teacher told me she's doing fine academically, which is good enough for me. But with this new info, I just wondered, purely out of interest, how she can be in top group for phonics, but apparently 'behind' for reading?

OP posts:
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maizieD · 26/11/2014 13:19

And even those don't need to be learned like pictures that children learn to put a name to, because some of their letters are easily decodable too.

Hallelujah! You're beginning to get the message, marsha.

catkind · 26/11/2014 19:10

I can't help wondering if maizie refers to Masha as Marsha because she's incorrectly sight read her name, or because she has sekrit knowledge.

mrz · 26/11/2014 19:19

Secret knowledge ... No just a long acquaintance with masha

maizieD · 26/11/2014 22:57

I write it as 'marsha' because that is how it is pronounced ( I have actually encountered her in real life). If she's going to eternally complain about the 'inconsistencies' of English spelling and demand that we change it so that it appears more logical (to her) I think she ought to start with her name and get it 'spelled like it sounds...' Wink

catkind · 26/11/2014 23:05
Smile
Mashabell · 27/11/2014 07:40

Maizie
U often point out that English letters can have more than one pronunciation.
In standard UK English the letter a often has an ah/ar sound (ask, task, bath). 'Father' is pronounced that way even in the North.

I continue to spell my name Masha because it has no r in it in either Lithuanian, Russian or German which were the languages i used to speak before i became British.

If the spelling of my name bothers u, how come u don't get annoyed by all the insane English spellings which make learning to read and write so much harder and more time-consuming than need be?

mrz · 27/11/2014 17:26

Have you ever been in the north masha?

Micksy · 27/11/2014 17:35

Masha, just want to say, I enjoy your posts and feel that you are always very reasonable in the face of a lot of unpleasant comments. I also enjoy your lists.

mrz · 27/11/2014 18:13

Interesting! What do you find "enjoyable" about lists of words?

LePetitMarseillais · 27/11/2014 20:19

Why are you so nasty to Masha?

mrz · 27/11/2014 20:24

Is it nasty to point out she has her own agenda and knows nothing whatsoever about teaching young children to read?

LePetitMarseillais · 27/11/2014 20:24

Seems to know a fair bit to me and what is her agenda?

mrz · 27/11/2014 20:41

Her agenda is to "reform" English spelling so we all spell "you" as "U"

mrz · 27/11/2014 20:44

People who actually work with children teaching them to read worry about Masha's posts ... It seems their concern is justified

Micksy · 28/11/2014 07:40

As someone who learned to read entirely by watching her siblings being taught with flash cards, I am pleased to hear an antidote to the one size fits all dogma of phonics. I read fluently and with good comprehension at a very early age without any later difficulties.
As I have some back ground in automated computer recognition of language, I find the lists interesting as part of a combinatorial mathematical problem.
I also find masha behaves with good grace, and is polite but persistent in offering her counter opinion, even when people attempt to belittle her credentials and humiliate her.

Mashabell · 28/11/2014 08:18

Thanks, Micksy and LePetitMarseillais.

I had better explain what my agenda is.

My main 'agenda', even though i'm now 70, is a passionate interest in education. I would like all children to learn as much as they possibly can, because education was so transformative in my own life.

Having lived in several countries, and visited many more, and experienced how much more easily, and how much faster, children learn to read and write with more regular spelling systems, i admit that i find it a shame that the irregularities of English make the lives of young English-speaking children and their parents so much harder - with a much earlier start to formal schooling, the need for regular reading practice at home, the constant testing, less time for play, fun, creativity and exercise in fresh air – and endless worries about spelling.

What upsets me particularly, having been a helper at a club for people with learning difficulties for 34 years, is how English spelling limits the educational prospects of people at the lower end of the ability range. Their more limited brain power already limits what they can achieve. But because as children they take an inordinately long time to achieve even quite modest reading and writing skills (often still reading very poorly by age 11) they are even less able to learn much of anything else.

So yes, i admit that i would love to see English spelling made more sensible and learning to read and write made easier and less time-consuming. But i have no illusions whatsoever about it happening any time soon, if ever, because it would mean the abler sections of society having to put up with the inconvenience of change mainly for the benefit of the less able.

My main, and i think much more achievable, agenda for the rest of my life is to END THE SILLY READING WARS which have been raging across the English-speaking world for more than a century, with employers endlessly blaming schools for poor literacy standards, and worse still, teachers blaming each other.

Over and over again, there have been teachers or educational expert popping up with a fantastic new approach that is the undoubted final solution to all literacy problems, and blaming persistent literacy failure on those who fail to see the light and don't jump on their bandwagon.

What they invariably ignore is that, regardless of how hard teachers work, and even how much parents help, lots of children continue to be confused by, and take a long time to get to grips with, phonic inconsistencies like 'go – to', 'on – only – once', 'man – many', 'treat – threat'....

And they need even more time for learning, word by word, how to spell at least
352 common words with /ee/ (speak, seek, shriek, seize, scene, machine ....)
197 with long /oo/ (blue, shoe, flew, through, to, you, too....)
194 with er/ir/ur/ear (her, bird, turned, early ...).
and so on, for at least 4,219 common words in all.

I want people who try to come up with new theories about how best to teach children to read and write to take note of the nature of English spelling, instead of pretending that learning to read and write English is just like learning any other alphabetically written language. That it's all just about teaching the alphabetic code and relationships between sounds and letters - with the latest batch of newly published, officially endorsed courses, which help to make the careers of their authors and promoters.

That's my agenda.
And it goes back to 1994 when i had to retire from teaching because of overwork and throat problems and started reading a newspaper daily. Commenting about the poor literacy standards of school leavers which were much in the news then, Andrew Neil claimed in The Times that half of all primary teachers were incompetent and should be sacked, with the rest being paid double. Knowing what I already knew, i could not let that go unchallenged. And over the past 20 years, i have learned a lot more about the ins and outs of English spelling and their origins than i knew then.

Masha Bell

Feenie · 28/11/2014 12:42

Soooooo, to sum up:

Masha, as an EAL learner, thinks English is complex and too hard to teach.
She devised lists to prove this, arranged in ways which actually do make it much more difficult.
She tells teachers that it's too hard but her lists make it easier, despite never having taught reading or spelling. Ever. At all.
Teachers who do successfully manage to successfully teach all their children to read and spell every day point out that there are ways to do so.
Masha says there aren't and we are wrong. Despite never actually having tried either her own methods or those which she denounces.

To those people who are posting supportive messages, that's very lovely - you might want to google Mashabell Tes - there is a loooong history of this dialogue.

maizieD · 28/11/2014 15:26

If the spelling of my name bothers u, how come u don't get annoyed by all the insane English spellings which make learning to read and write so much harder and more time-consuming than need be?
The spelling of your name doesn't bother me in the slightest, marsha. I only spell it the way I do to make a point. The point being that most people would automatically read your name as 'mash' (as in mashed potato) 'a'.

I continue to spell my name Masha because it has no r in it in either Lithuanian, Russian or German which were the languages i used to speak before i became British.

Which is so ironic! There you are twisiting on about the difficulty of English spelling, difficulty exacerbated by the fact that we have absorbed thousands of words from other langauges along with their original spellings, in the 'code' specific to the originating language and you won't change the spelling of your name to fit with the English alphabetic code. Funnily enough, marsh doesn't have an /r/ sound in it, either, but it sounds exactly like the first syllable of your name. Saying that masha 'has no 'r' in it' is completely meaningless and is another indication of your complete failure to understand the phonic 'code' of English.

Micksy, you may well have learned to read and spell without being explicitly taught any phonics but you were undoubtedly among the lucky children who managed to intuit it for themselves. It cannot be done on here because this is a visual, not an aural, medium, but it would be instructive to discover how you would approach spelling a word completely unknown to you which you could only hear spoken. Or even how you work out what a completely unknown written word 'says'.

Marsha is not unique in having studied English spelling. Many people on here, who teach children, are very familiar with how the English alphabetic code 'works' and the history of the development of the English language and its orthography. It is just that we and marsha are apporoaching it from completely different directions. We are trying to use the most effective known method of teaching children to read and spell and teach the body of knowledge which it is essential that they learn for this. Marsha is trying to convince her readers that the English language is incredibly difficult to learn to read and spell and needs to be 'regularised' in some way. Which is absolutely fair enough. No-one is trying to stop her.

Most sensible people know that English is one of the most difficult language languages to learn to read and spell. We are trying to make it easier right now, not in some vague respelled future. Marsha accentuates the horrors to gain support, we point out the simplicities to reassure people that it can be done without stress for their DCs.

Where we get cross is with marsha promulgating completely outdated ideas about the teaching of reading and spelling and demonstrating a lack of understanding of phonics as it is taught now. In fact, a lack of understanding of phonics, full stop. We think she should stick to her spelling campaign and stop trying to offer outdated and confusing 'advice' on teaching reading and spelling.

mrz · 28/11/2014 18:11

Obviously you haven't read many of Masha's posts or wondered why she's so frequently deleted or banned from posting Hmm

Feenie · 28/11/2014 18:14

And not just from here, either.

Mashabell · 28/11/2014 18:43

I won't waste my time contradicting Feenie's and Maizie's lies and half-truths about me personally because i know that my words would be ignored, as they have done before. It's a shame they feel the need to stoop so low.

I want to comment on that
Most sensible people know that English is one of the most difficult language languages to learn to read and spell.

It's a fact that most people are not aware of. I have lots of books and articles which keep repeating the lie that English spelling is much like any other orthography, and that literacy problems are invariably due to just poor teaching, as Maizie, Mrz and Feenie have often claimed on various threads here and elsewhere.

I do not accentuate the horrors of English spelling. I try to describe the English spelling system in the most impartial, accurate and objective way possible. I did, for example, say that two thirds of the 300 most used English words have regular spellings and can be taught to read and write with phonics in the normal sense of that word. I keep pointing out that most consonant spellings are regular.

As to giving advice on the teaching of reading and spelling, the majority of teachers don't buy into your 'nothing but phonics' approach either.

Feenie · 28/11/2014 18:49

You don't need to contradict them - posters know how to use Google. Hmm

Masha, that last sentence is ridiculous. Know all if them, do you? It's just another example of you making sweeping statements that you can't possibly know is true.

I will never understand why you won't listen to teachers who don't have literacy problems in their schools and ask why?

mrz · 28/11/2014 18:49

I don't think anyone has stooped as low as you did the day you attacked my son masha

Feenie · 28/11/2014 18:53

Just using a sample of teachers who post on the MN boards shows that the majority here are not.

I haven't told any lies, or half truths, and repeating facts isn't a personal attack, or 'stooping'! No idea why you are being so dramatic.

Feenie · 28/11/2014 18:54

God, yes, had forgotten all about that Shock - that post was horrific.