Help.....moving to Wales....teaching in Welsh to a child that only speaks English

[Wales2015]

Hi,

This is my first time posting on the forum. We are planning to move from Berkshire to Wales next summer. Our little one is currently in year 1 and will be moving into year 2 at the time of the move. The research that we have done gives us a lot of confidence about the local school but the main language in the school is Welsh. None of us speak Welsh (although we all hope to learn) and I am worried about how easy it will be to adapt to being taught in a new language. Also, how could we support with homework?

Does anyone have any experiences that they could share or things that we should be thinking about.

Thanks so much!

She felt she was at a disadvantage when she left Wales to go to an English Uni. If all your written work is in Welsh at school it must be hard to go from that to all written work in English. I wonder if there has been any surveys done on this.

Well all their written work isn't in Welsh. As soon as you're in Juniors (year 3 and above) you have to do English language/reading/comprehension/writing.

I actually think children from Welsh speaking homes who go to a welsh medium school are possibly at a disadvantage because their English is a second language. But for people like me and the OP, English is very much first language. My 9 year old's English is just as strong as her Welsh if not stronger - it's what she speaks at home, she reads English for pleasure and watches TV in English.

I have a few friends with children at welsh medium schools. All of them speak English at home, read English books and never watch any Welsh language programmes on TV.

In short, outside of school, they conduct their lives in English.
TBH, it's all a bit trendy and middle class to send your child to a WM school. I have no objection at all to learning another language and have a smattering of Welsh myself, and my DD is pretty good with languages generally, and is actually very good at Welsh.

There is no way I would have sent her to a WM school though. She would never have forgiven me.

Learning Welsh is distinct advantage if living and working in Wales particularly in public sector jobs. I owner what has happened to OP though, perhaps totally put off by the complexity of it all?

I'm a first language Welsh speaker and my whole school education was done through the medium of Welsh. I went to an English uni. I did not feel disadvantaged in any way as I'm completely bilingual. Our DCs are bilingual as DH does not speak Welsh so we speak a mixture of both languages at home.

We moved from Cardiff to a very Welsh speaking area when DD1 was 2.5. She started pre-school with two children who'd moved from the South of England at the same time. They were completely at ease with the language by the time they started primary at just gone 4. Their older sibling went straight into a WM school and was more or less fluent within a term. No school will refuse to speak English to a child - and to claim such a thing is no more than scaremongering. Depending on where OP is intending to move, as a PP says, in some areas there is no English medium alternative.

There are lots if positives about Welsh schooling too. It is a truly comprehensive system so none of the angst and mega tutoring some children are subjected to (reading some threads )

Being a non-(Well, very weak)Welsh speaker living in rural Wales has set me at a disadvantage as an adult personally, so you will get opinions from both sides as it whether it's to your DC's benefit or not!

DD will attend Welsh medium primary school as it is important to DH (non-Welsh speaking, but Welsh by birth) that she should have that cultural experience as he missed out on it. Being professionally disadvantaged here by my monolingualism, I tend to agree.

I have never, ever heard of teachers refusing to allow children to speak English to each other in the playground, or not helping a child who is struggling with the language by translating etc. and I live in very rural, very Welsh speaking Ceredigion. The majority of Welsh children actually speak very little or no Welsh before starting school, they do pick it up. Perhaps consider choosing a school having discussed with the heads what support they can offer your DC? You may be plesantly surprised!

I'm really surprised at the negativity here. If repost in another section to hear from more bilingual families.

I live in Scotland and know parents from English speaking homes who send their children to gaelic medium schools and I believe the majority of parents at my nearest gaelic school don't soeak gaelic themselves.

There is s lot of evidence about the benefits of bilingualism and with only one language in the home then education in another language is the only way to get close to bilingualism. Children with two languages from an early age find it far easier to learn other languages later. There are other benefits too that are well documented though I'm no expert.
I don't think yr2 is too late to pick it up. And the other kids will all know English even if they don't doesk it in school.

My daughter goes to a Welsh medium school.

She couldn't speak any Welsh when she started reception. She is now year 3 and fluent.

80% of the children in her school come from a non Welsh speaking home. They all seem to thrive and don't get confused at all.

I don't speak Welsh and sometimes struggle with homework but it's explained in both languages.

She loves it and I'm so proud of her

I think your child will grasp it but you might need to get some extra help if you can.

Where in Wales are you moving to?

With respect Vivienne you don't seem to know what your talking about.

My daughter is now learning English reading and writing in year 3 and will continue with both until she leaves high school.

Some schools also allow a choice of taking GCSE's in Welsh or English to.

Ooo Mabliheulwen - I'm in the same county and you share a name with DD2

I am a Welsh speaker and went to a bilingual school. The area I grew up in now has only Welsh-medium schools.

I am also a Modern languages teacher. I understand about the acquisition of second/third languages and the benefits of bilingualism.

(Dons hard hat for flaming)

Whenever I hear people talking about Welsh medium schools, I hear how marvellous it is to learn Welsh (and it is).
My main problem is they have done such a fantastic job of boosting the Welsh language, the standards in other areas have slipped alarmingly in many schools.
I have many friends and family with dc in different schools in North West Wales, and standards and teaching quality can be alarmingly low. There is a national shortage of secondary maths and science specialists- add the requirement that they need to be fluent Welsh speakers and you are looking at an extremely small recruitment pool.

My friend has just left a secondary school in Gwynedd and has some ridiculous stories- she teaches French and was told off for writing Devoirs on the board instead of Gwaith Cartref.

Stories of children being forbidden to speak English in the playground are awful. Welsh history justifiably holds the "Welsh Not" up as an appalling oppression of Welsh speakers (it was). They are now doing exactly the same to English speakers. Could you imagine if an English school forbade a group of children to speak Hindi or Farsi among themselves at lunchtime?

Levels of English literacy is very low in some schools (my cousin was told not to worry about her DS's English "as he will pick it up from TV" ). I also know of a recent arrival in Wales from England who had to sit in a GCSE Science lesson with Google translate open on their phone to stand a chance of keeping up.

www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jan/29/school-standards-wales-causing-concern

I understand this will not be everyone's experience, but I know enough people in enough schools to know this is a concern for many, but no one says anything - it is the elephant in the room, because "isn't it lovely we are all speaking Welsh"

It would concern me greatly if we moved back, although I'd love to. Have a big hiraeth going on here!

Hello

I was put into a Welsh medium school when I was seven.
This was over thirty five years ago and I was only there for a short while (we moved again) but it was very confusing. By that age a Welsh Medium school would be doing all the lessons in Welsh so your child will be thrown in at the deep end. On the positive side it didn't take me long to pick up the basics and your child will get extra help,if needed.

Sadly one of the problems I had was being one of the 'sais' (English) and being bullied for it. However this was the 70s and it may be different now.

I continued my education in an English medium school but still in West Wales so we did a lot of Welsh learning and by the time I moved to South Wales my Welsh was a much higher standard to the other kids'.

I am now in Cardiff and contemplating putting my son into Welsh medium school as it can be an advantage but I still have reservations about it so still not sure.

God, just read that back and it sounded really negative when I didn't mean it to be.

I meant that the initial being thrown in at the deep end was confusing but I did pick it up very easily even at seven.

I think the reason I can understand so much now (and also the pronunciation comes easily to me) is because of that immersion at a fairly early age.

I have friends here who have kids in Welsh medium and they have picked it up very easily.

arian I agree completely with the thrust of your post. The obsession with learning Welsh has unfortunately been to the detriment of many other subjects, and consequently standards of teaching in WS schools are not all they should be!
Teaching science for instance through the medium of Welsh is bizarre.
Also, forbidding children to speak English at play/ leisure time is alive and well in many WM schools I'm afraid.
In fact a few years ago, when my
DD's friend was in year six she and her friends were forbidden to speak English whilst away on a weekend residential trip. She is now in an english medium secondary school.

If you have flexibility, move to a part of Wales where your DC can be educated in English. I moved here from England with DCs in nursery and year 1 and the older one wouldn't have coped with welsh language education. The younger might have though.

Current policy is that public sector jobs must advertise for welsh language speakers in certain posts. If you want to be a receptionist it might be advantage but I'm certain the majority of posts will stay English speaking.

I'm amazed at some of these negative posts, interesting mainly from people who either have no experience of living in wales or who have never tried the welsh medium route.

I really don't think some posters understand that in some parts of wales, welsh is very much the spoken language. Swimming lessons for example are always done though welsh (they speak a little English 1:1 to the child after speaking welsh to the group if they feel an English child didn't understand), judo / karate / dancing lessons are done in welsh. The shop keepers / bus drivers / lollipop lady all speak to you in welsh. Obviously once they realise your English they will speak English to you, but in some areas it's is presumed you speak welsh.

The vast majority of jobs here require being a fluent welsh speaker, that ranges from working in a shop - admin - support work - social worker - council staff. Not being able to speak welsh puts you at a huge disadvantage in the job market, you cannot even apply for a lot of jobs.

That probably all sounds awful to most of you and as an English person I too find it frustrating, but then I have chosen to live in wales!

I admit to being very concerned in sending my dc to a welsh speaking school, but there simply isn't an English option anywhere in the county. However despite speaking no English at home both dc are doing great. I have seen older children enter the school from England and within a few terms you would never know. The schools here put a lot of time and effort into teaching them welsh.

Yes some schools aren't great, equally a lot have been rated as 'excellent'. Isn't that true of most areas? Certainly all the schools within 8 miles of me are either good or excellent.

I have never known a school to ban speaking English in the playground. My dc school do encourage welsh however by giving them tokens if speaking welsh socially. Most do naturally to be honest though as for most children it is there first language. In the case of a new English child coming into the school I have no doubt that they would just be happy to see that child talking and playing with friends, in either language.

I really can't see how learning welsh when living in wales can be a bad thing, certainly at primary level.

As a side note if parents want to learn welsh there are a whole load of courses to pick from locally. They also have things like homework helplines where if you don't understand the welsh they will help.

I am pretty amazed too as when I asked about Welsh medium Education for my son recently I got mainly positive responses. Unlike other parts of Wales I have a choice of where to send as English medium schools are available in my area but some posters don't seem to realise that Welsh medium is often the only option and the kids do not do badly in those schools on the whole.

I disagree . though, that the majority of jobs advertised need a Welsh speaker. I see 'ability to communicate through Welsh' a lot in my job (Media) but not as a general rule - I am in south Wales though.

Where I grew up in West Wales Welsh was spoken everywhere I went and I agree that many English posters are just not aware of this.

here is a recent story about Welsh medium education. it's not all bad.

You make some interesting points arianwen and as my DD is in year 5, where to send her for secondary school is starting to play on my mind. Luckily for us, the standard of teaching in the Welsh medium secondary her school feeds into seems very high. They had a brilliant Estyn inspection and were ranked top in Wales in the Western Mail rankings that they bring out every year. I realise neither of those mean it's conclusively the best school but presumably they couldn't have done so well if standards were terribly low?

The way I see it, by sending my kids to a welsh medium primary I have twice as many options when it comes to secondary than the parents with kids in english medium primary schools. Which can only be a good thing.

As I understand it too, there are concerns about educational standards in Welsh schools across the board - both English and Welsh. Certainly that's what the Guardian article is about - NOT just about Welsh medium schools.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. There definitely is a lot for us to think about!
Most of the schools in the area that we will be moving to are WM and do get very good reports. There is an EM option but it is 30 mins drive away - it is close enough to be an option if need be. I am going to go and visit both schools to get a sense of where I think will work best and also do some research on learning Welsh as parents. By the sounds of things it will definitely help if as parents we can at least understand the basics.

I am mainly concerned about not being able to offer enough support to school work if we select a WM school but it sounds as though there may be some ways round this.

Everyone that we have met so far has spoken English to us without any issues but we want to embrace the culture when we move there. I just want to make sure that it is a successful move for all the family.

Thanks again

The problem I have with Estyn is, Wales opted out of OFSTED when their schools were being consistently graded as Failing or Needing Improvement. They introduce their own inspectorate and BANG they are suddenly all outstanding.

They have also now opted out of their PISA targets.

It smacks of "fingers in the ears going lalalalalalala- we are outstanding if we say we are"

I know it is not just down to the Welsh Language policy - but that does play a part.

English speaking parents will say "Yes they've picked it up well" and "they were fluent very quickly". The only thing anyone ever talks about in Welsh schools is the Welsh language (which they teach very well btw). Ask how well they teach maths, English, Science, Geography etc.

I now live overseas in a SE Asian country that has a similar attitude to its state education system - it has moved away from teaching in English to teaching in it's national language (which no one else speaks), despite the majority of parents wishing to keep the option of English medium, the persistent denials that their system is failing students, that they consider themselves outstanding, but all international ranking put them in the bottom 10 in the world (along with Peru, Qatar and Indonesia) Classes of 50+ and a hugely overworked, under resourced demoralised teaching profession, who get blamed for all the failings.
It has led to a mushrooming of "budget" private schools who teach in English - no frills, really basic, but the key is the English medium, and ordinary working parents go without to pay for them. I teach in one.
I'm getting off topic, but it's my favourite soapbox and I see so many parallels between Wales and where I am.

I'm not against Welsh Medium Schools, I am a product of one myself. But I am in favour of parental choice. Why won't some counties offer the choice? (Ynys Mon and Gwynedd - I'm looking at you!) Because they know the majority of parents would opt for English if the choice was there, even though most parents won't admit it openly because everything is lovely and we're all speaking Welsh. There is one school on Ynys Mon that is allowed to teach in English as it serves RAF Valley. It is massively oversubscribed.

I think all children should learn Welsh up to GCSE minimum. It is a beautiful language which is still relevant and useful if you live there. I'm ashamed to admit, since I have moved abroad the standard of my spoken Welsh has deteriorated, and I should find a way to work on it.

There was nothing wrong with the system I went through (Bi-lingual - parents choose Welsh or English stream)
The English stream was taught in English except for Welsh language and literature, taught to a high standard and most of them were near to bilingual by the time we sat O-level.
I'm showing my age now and will shut up.

The problem I have with Estyn is, Wales opted out of OFSTED when their schools were being consistently graded as failing or needing improvement. They introduce their own inspecterote and BANG they are suddenly all outstanding.
They have also one opted out of their PISA targets

Yes, and they have been allowed to do this withouth any challenge. They are not comparing like with like, so this is totally disingenuous.

Arianwen, I'd be lying if I said the standard of education in Wales being poor doesn't worry me. BUT I just don't see it as a Welsh medium problem - it's a whole Wales problem including English medium schools. The Estyn issue applies to all of them surely?

Anyway, we're probably going to frighten the poor OP out of moving to Wales altogether now . Good luck with it Wales2015, whichever medium you choose!

I was in my mid 60s when I moved to a Welsh speaking area of Wales. There are lots of Welsh for adults classes and they are well subscribed. I am in my 2nd year and can communicate now with my grandchildren who are both at a Welsh medium school. I feel so sad to see all the negatives, It seems to me only respectful if you chose to live in Wales, that you make some attempt to speak the language, even if only in basics. My grandchildren speak English at home, they can speak English in the playground but they learn every thing in the medium of Welsh in the classroom. Many jobs, in Mid Wales at least where Welsh is spoken by many, require the equivalent of A level in Welsh to work. This includes social workers, care staff, teachers . I was told by one old lady that when children were evacuated here during the way, they were fluent in Welsh within 6 months. Wales is a country and a culture in it's own right and to me if you live there , you should at least ensure your children have the gift of becoming bilingual. What many people don't seem to realise is that when you are bilingual in any two langues it expands the part of the brain that deals with language and it is then easier to learn other languages. Since I have been learning Welsh we have all noticed that our ' school' French and other languages learned over the years,is also surfacing.